Episode 13 - Real Friends or Convenient Allies? The Truth About Workplace Friendships

*Content Warning* In this episode of the Business Psychos Podcast, we discuss topics related to suicide. We recognize that this subject can be distressing for some listeners. Please listen with care and be mindful of your emotional well-being.

If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, it’s important to reach out for support. Consider speaking with a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional. You can also contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK) for immediate help and resources.

Your well-being is our priority. Take care while listening.

This week's conversation explores the impact of relationships in the workplace and the trade-offs involved. It delves into the importance of personal connections at work and the risks and challenges that come with them. The hosts share personal stories and examples to illustrate the different dynamics of work friendships. They discuss the role of bad bosses, the definition of friendship, and the impact of highly political work environments. The conversation also touches on the experiences of professional betrayals and disappointments. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexities of work relationships and the need for caution and self-care. The conversation explores the topic of work friendships and the potential risks and challenges they can present. The hosts share personal experiences and discuss the importance of maintaining professional boundaries in the workplace. They provide three key takeaways: 1) Be friendly but don't expect friendship; 2) Trust and verify the intentions of others; and 3) Evaluate the political environment of your workplace. The conversation is divided into two chapters: 1) The challenges of work friendships and 2) Navigating professional relationships. The hosts also share soundBites that highlight the main points of the conversation.

Chapters

• 0:00 Part One: Let’s Talk About Work Friendships
• 5:37 Part Two: Unpacking the Confusion: The Truth About Work Friendships
• 24:30 Part Three: Redefine Professional Friendships: Creating Healthier Work Boundaries

Transcript

Katie Bickford (00:31.298)
I'm a solid so -so today. Yeah. How are you?

Mary (00:39.751)
Solid So -So. Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually a solid So -So too. Yeah, I am gonna own it like for lots of different reasons.

feeling overwhelmed by the news cycle and yet trying to stay connected to things. And then something came up in the news that it made me think about our show and it also related to something an audience member wrote in to me about. So, and I think over the last week, J. Michael Klein, who was the founder of Fandango and a managing partner at a PE firm.

He killed himself here in New York. He jumped out of a window. I should say trigger warning, suicide is the right thing to do. But here is a man who was like, mean, know, textbook success, multiple executive positions, a lot of wealth, six children he left behind, and in a lot of pain, really suffering. like we talk about

business and making it on the show. And we talk about mental health and all this. And sometimes I think we're like, the employers and the employees and all of this. like here he is an employer of, but he's also this, this man who was in so much pain. and he left behind a note that just said, you know, like, I'm sorry, I can't, this pain. And, and it just made me think of the show because I think ultimately, you know, regardless of your role or what your professional experience is on LinkedIn.

Like there's a lot of people really suffering right now and probably just trying to get through and get by and you don't have no idea what everyone's dealing with. And then related to this was an audience member wrote me and said that she was really, really moved by our episode on shame and that it really resonated with her and a lot of her coworkers.

Mary (02:45.767)
And I wrote back and I was like, that's great. And, you know, I'd love to hear any feedback you have on other shows. And she's like, actually, you know what? I don't know if I can emotionally listen to the other shows because it might make it really hard for me to continue to be here at this job. And I was like, interesting. Okay. Like a different.

Katie Bickford (03:05.976)
Yeah.

Mary (03:09.167)
a different angle, but kind of in that like, need to keep the blinders on, keep my head down and keep going. Because if I like look up and I really accept and understand what's what, how this experience is for me, I don't know if I can kind of continue on. And, and so I felt I felt really like, conflicted about that, Katie, I felt like and I felt sad that people are having to do that to survive.

Katie Bickford (03:37.954)
Yeah and having and I don't know about you, but I relate to having done that

Mary (03:39.578)
This is an older gene.

Mary (03:45.937)
Yeah, I do too. I remember like just up in the elevator, right? You're like watching the things, you're

You know what I Yeah. And how many of us have the playlist, like the going to work playlist? It's just like, you know, the eye of the tiger. You're like Rocky, you're like going up the steps. you're like, yeah, I mean, it's not like how we're supposed to be. It's not how, it's not a really healthy human condition. And yet it's so common and it's kind of where we are, like big picture where we are, right?

Katie Bickford (03:55.151)
The Captivate TV screen?

Mary (04:21.041)
not just each one of us has this experience, but I think this plays into why so many people are reevaluating their relationship to work. And I think why the show has resonated with people because maybe this particular listener who is a fan was like, thank you, but you know what, I'm still in it for right now. And like, I know it's there, but I need to kind of go plug back into the matrix to get to a certain point. had, there was another, someone else had.

had contacted me about like, well, I kind of am reevaluating my retirement timeline and seeing like what I need to do. And I think maybe my belief is that at least people are starting to make this more conscious.

Katie Bickford (05:04.056)
That's it, yeah. Yeah, I think that on one hand that can feel, you know, I can imagine getting that feedback might feel bad because you think, did I make you feel bad, right? On some level, it's like, did my podcast make you feel bad? And now you're kind of trying to sort of retrench and kind of pull back from

But the way I look at it, and especially having been someone who went through periods where I really actively shut out inputs that were about a bigger picture because they hurt, it hurt me to see, you know, how badly I was hurting myself with how I was working, that I actively shut them down. But it's kind of a lifeline because it's like you go back

but you carry with yourself kind of like a little pearl that is like, okay, there's something to come back out to because that sense of ability, like that sensibility in what you're talking about is becoming conscious of I'm making this trade because there's something that I need to be doing right now to be building for something that matters to me versus it feeling like just avoid that you're entering.

and that there's no parameters, there's no fencing in of it, there's no alternatives. mean, that for me was one of the things, especially when you're in a world that's really absorbing you in a very particular way, that you're surrounded by other people who are absorbed. So it's like the perspective that you have is absolutely becomes really convoluted and it's hard to imagine that there's any other way to live.

and going back to what you started out with is the feeling of hopelessness has to do like with the, think that part of that is, has to do with things getting very insular, you know, and be, and not being able to, you know, have exposure to alternatives and be able to see a way out. And I think sometimes a lot of that success and pressure, you know, builds kind of creates.

Katie Bickford (07:21.966)
tension about expectations about who you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to represent and that becomes part of your identity. So it's like now it's confusing about like how much of your identity can you let go of when you can't see an alternative for what to replace it with. And I'll say that when I was writing Parinama, my book, that I interviewed a lot of people and one of the things was I interviewed them as a sort of exited executive.

And so what that means is that people were talking to me without feeling like they were risking anything. So there wasn't any sense, like I held power and would be able to like, so there was this freedom that people talked to me with, which, you know, and I remember that my joke had been, and I was talking with people who are very senior executives.

high profile people and people that were considered in this upper echelon. And because they'd come to the place of considering me as a safe place to land for this conversation and understanding that would be held and that I would maintain their privacy, they disclosed a lot to me. I think that one of the, my joke had been that the working title of my book was

the real secret is everyone kind of feels exactly like you do. And that, it was like, I joke around, I'd be like, the secret, the real secret is that everyone's actually struggling with the same things you are. And there's these roles we play where we begin to believe it's our responsibility to be further and further from being able to accurately express what we are. And as we've discussed in our show about authenticity,

There is a thing where you have to represent, you have to like play a certain role, but if you untether yourself from your connection to who you are holistically in other parts of your life, you know, that's, think where, you know, where it can get really overwhelming. And my heart goes out to the children and the family members and the loved ones of this gentleman.

Katie Bickford (09:46.12)
who ended his life. It's heartbreaking to think about.

Mary (09:55.343)
I think what I'll end on for this kind of sad segment is that we always talk about trade -offs and we talk about the personas. I mean, maybe this is like a good time to just remind everybody that your life and your wellness, your mental and physical health are always the most important. That's the only game, right? There's no trade -off for your wellness. so, you

put, you can't say put things in perspective because we all get wrapped up into these things, but just in case someone needs to hear it, take care of yourself and your others because.

Katie Bickford (10:34.904)
Take care of yourself. Yeah, and I think one of the things that happens is when you get really like in the maze and the walls feel really tight, there can be fears about financial and physical securities. And I just want to put, you know, sort of a vote in here to say, and this is a definitely a rarefied space to be in,

to make the point that I have like throughout my career, know, taken on a big project, worked it, then stepped away and did something else. And then I go back and I do another big professional project. And every single time I come back stronger and I come back with more earning potential and more capability and more capacity. So the linear model where people are afraid of career gaps.

Like that's one of the like resume gaps is like a joke to me. I'm like, it's not a thing. I'm sorry, it's not a thing. And what people do is they bring it up. They bring up the fact that like, let me explain this versus if you really like most, I actually don't think I've ever had anyone bring it up. Cause I don't think about it. don't like, it just doesn't occur to me.

Mary (11:54.055)
Well, all these things, you weren't given the project you wanted. didn't get the bonus, the demotion, the reorg, whatever. Like it is a point in time. It is a little shift in the road. Progress isn't linear and it might actually, might, you know, it might end up better. It might end up better.

Katie Bickford (12:13.59)
I think that's the sign that for anyone who's listening, those beeps, that's the sign from the universe that you're speaking truth. It's a little chirps. It's like, that is correct. That is a sign. So yeah, brilliant.

Mary (12:18.523)
those beeps.

Mary (12:30.359)
And cut. my God, I'm gonna kill Paul. Put that in there. Put that in there. Don't, there'll be evidence if anything happens. okay. Let's, we have to do this quickly. I can't before this happens. my God, this guy. All right. Act one, scene two. High level T up. And action.

Katie Bickford (12:45.582)
That's so funny.

Mary (12:59.367)
We recently did a show about how work isn't family, and it got us thinking about how people can make all the difference in a workplace. Dead -end jobs can be appealing when you consider your coworkers friends, but challenging interpersonal relationships can also upend an otherwise good job and even negatively impact your performance. Most people would rather work in environments that are friendly, even fun, than boring jobs with uninteresting people.

Think about all the jobs you've held in the past. Which ones were the best for you professionally? Where did you have the most friends? Now consider jobs where you were really unhappy. What was the quality of your relationships there? Sometimes we stay in jobs longer than we should because we're comfortable and like the people we work with. How important is this to you? Is it worth trading off advancement or additional compensation?

Can you quite literally put a price on relationships?

cut.

Katie Bickford (14:05.774)
So, take one. right. People stay and leave jobs because of relationships. So to the question you had asked in the previous segment, Mary, a Gallup poll of over a million people found that 75 % of workers who voluntarily left their jobs did because of a bad boss.

and not the position or the company. So this plays a greater role in quitting than pay and or lack of opportunities for advancement. So, but what about the other relationships that bind us to jobs? I can imagine that if you're listening, you can immediately start thinking of your in the trenches colleagues and work spouses who represent some of your most significant day -to -day relationships.

We spend so much time with these people. Most of us spend around a third of our waking lives at work, at your commute and all the activities that support your career. We get closer to 50%. That's a lot. But is all the time together artificially inflating the so -called closeness of our work friendships? The right job can bring emotional and intellectual satisfaction.

but work can also bring profound stress into our lives and even impact our health when it's going wrong. Most of us will experience a mix of positive and challenging experiences in the same job, even at the same time. With so much time and emotion spent at work, it's not surprising that many friendships be in there, but consider that the definition of friendship is, and let me check my notes here, is

is the definition is a relationship of mutual affection between people, a stronger form of interpersonal bond than an acquaintance or an association such as a classmate, neighbor, coworker or colleague. It's important to note that the definition of friendship includes within it a differentiation with the term coworker.

Katie Bickford (16:28.192)
I think in some cases people mistake collegial behavior, especially with people one interacts with often as being on par with friendship. You may be the type of person for whom frequent interaction can lead to emotional bonding, especially if you are one to share personal information with your coworkers. And let's not underestimate trauma bonding. If you're working in a complex or toxic culture,

Or the difficult boss. Nothing can feel better than commiserating with someone who completely understands and can empathize. Not feeling alone can be very helpful when coping with these kinds of experiences. But is it friendship? So take a moment and think about the colleagues you refer to as friends. As you run through the list of these people, ask yourself if you feel a strong

mutual bond. Now take it a step further. Would you be comfortable asking one of these people to pick you up at the airport or to help you move? If you lost a family member, would they turn up to your house with a casserole or would they come to the funeral? Okay, so I'll take it another step further.

Now ask all those questions except consider your closest friendships from previous jobs. So all of us want to be respected and liked and be part of trusted relationships with others. As we grow older, we may find it more difficult to meet and make new relationships. Work provides access to people similar to ourselves in some really important ways. If you are someone who still over identifies with work,

as we've discussed on the show before, you might find work is the primary channel for all your adult relationships because work is the primary focus of your life. So with so much time spent at work, it's accessibility to like -minded people who can empathize and be understanding of your experience is, it's massively appealing. Therefore, it's a no -brainer most of us have made and continue to make friends through

Katie Bickford (18:48.478)
Something to think about. Now, have you ever stayed at a job too long because a so -called friendship with someone you no longer talk to? So while there are many variables to conclusively say whether personal relationships at work, well, so let me redraft. Well, there are too many variables to conclusively say whether personal relationships at work are wholly good, or bad.

it's worth considering some of the risks and trade -offs involved.

Mary (19:31.101)
Okay, scene

After three decades, I've met a lot of people throughout my career, many of whom I thought I knew really well. With a career span like this, it's like, take two. With a career span like this, it's likely you'll have been a witness to weddings, births, divorces, and even deaths. I've been to weddings with people who are now divorced and sent baby gifts to people whose children are now graduating college.

Years ago, a woman I sat with at lunch every day died of a heart attack at her desk. She was 29, same age as me, and had a three -year -old daughter who would be 24 today. It took years for me to land on a true definition of friendship and to reflect on the lessons learned through numerous work relationships. The phrase, the good, the bad, and the ugly feels to be an apt expression here. Let's cover the good first.

Of my trusted inner circle of intimate friends, meaning the people who have the capacity to receive me as my authentic, vulnerable, uncensored self, nearly all are comprised of former co -workers. In all cases, work was not an enabler to the relationship. These were not trauma -bonding relationships. I was more interested in getting to know who they were as people rather than focusing on rehashing our shared work experiences.

Also in all cases, the friendships became more solidified after one or both of us left the job where we met. Finally, in all cases, the friendships lasted because both parties grew and evolved beyond who we were when we first met, including our growing roles we had originally occupied. These relationships became emotionally intimate friendships because they were about supporting one another through our respective journeys of self -discovery and transformation.

Mary (21:31.899)
Now here's the bad or maybe more realistic example. Most of the people I've befriended at work were point in time friends. I may have known them outside of work and even met their families. If any were to reach out and suggest dinner today, I would go out of my way to make it happen. But I wouldn't be surprised if the effort wasn't reciprocated. Sometimes the reasons are complex. People going through their own stuff, limited amount of time or mental energy.

In other cases, people aren't geographically near and neither party is investing in travel to maintain emotional bonds. But the most common reason why these friendships, stop, let do it. the, stop again. But the most common reason why these aren't friendships is because they never were. When point in time work friends cease to work together, it reveals their true nature.

that of professional acquaintances, not friends. There's no need to look at this cynically or with anger or even sadness. Most people come into our lives for a season or two. Perhaps we're lucky to have them for several chapters of our life, but these are rarer occurrences. Making friends at work is like making friends at school. We find each other sharing a specific place and time and we form bonds and context to our persona at this time.

as a student, a worker, a boss, making the jump to a real relationship requires mutual investment and compatible emotional capacities, which are able to withstand change over time. Though it is possible to make real friends at work, it also comes with risks worth considering, which leads me to the ugly example. I was working in a very reputable organization as a leader in a highly visible role.

I interacted with the most senior level of the organization and had made several very strong alliances there. My boss was fired and replaced with a woman who had worked in the company for many years in the same role. I liked her immediately and opened up to her, maybe a little too fast. I invited her to my home for dinner and she met my family. I was excited about having a strong female boss whom I could look to for mentorship and development advice.

Mary (23:54.737)
Several months later, I found myself growing uncomfortable with the behavior of one of the executives we both worked with. He was known as being a fun and outgoing party guy, but was making sexual advances and comments which were moving well outside the realm of appropriateness. One evening, my boss and I went to dinner and I told her everything. She was kind and helpful and offered me some suggestions on how to handle the situation with this person she had known well.

Shortly after I ran into the guy while getting coffee in the office. He turned to me with hatred in his eyes and gave me a nasty look up and down before turning to walk away without saying a word. I came to realize that my boss had shared everything with him and I was devastated. I hadn't considered that she might use what I had told her in confidence to her political advantage. But this is exactly what happened.

She destroyed my relationship with an influential executive and improved hers by using my information as political capital to share with him to prove her loyalty and value. This experience taught me the importance of being more patient and more cautious. You shouldn't need to hide things from your real friends. Unfortunately, in highly political work environments, everything is fair game with many people.

Katie Bickford (25:18.013)
my gosh, Mary. This example, this show, it's always so evocative in ways I don't expect it to be.

Katie Bickford (25:34.488)
So it's like taking a minute to just, because the thing is I can imagine that the listeners feel the same way I do, which is like you hear that story and there's just a resonance in it. Whether or not you had that exact experience, that's not the point. It's like there's aspects of that and kind of like resurfacing those is super evocative. I will say that a very formative experience for me was

as far as the ugly part of friendship is my first job at around eight years old was picking strawberries for 25 cents a quart. And another little girl who I thought was a friend said, let's team up and fill one of these cardboard flats together. And I think I was enjoying like the camaraderie as much as the idea of, you know, making

like a dollar fifty for a couple hours to work around, like probably an hour or whatever, felt lot longer for an a year old. And then the shock and betrayal when she took the flat of our combined strawberries and took credit for all of them. And that stayed with me. I think I've told that story in professional events because it really shaped me. And in sales, if you're not careful,

I work in certain environments, like so -called friends will snipe your deals. When I sold medical devices 20 years ago, another rep on the team who is also buddies with our boss claimed one of my deals was his because the surgeon I'd worked with also performed surgeries in his territory and the boss gave it to him. So, you know, one of the things, you know, when we're talking about friendship here is to your point is being cautious.

Mary (27:35.195)
Your story was also alarming because of the child labor aspect of it, Katie. I don't know that I couldn't get past the like, you're at eight years old, you're doing manual labor, but okay.

Katie Bickford (27:40.056)
There's like

Katie Bickford (27:45.774)
Yeah, it's really, don't know, like when I'm like, it was hours, I think it was probably like minutes, but still like, yeah, there was, was a little farm next to our house where you just would go. I think, and actually, I think the way the story played out is we, it was like pick your own strawberries. And I think they did something kind of cute for kids where they said, we'll pay 25 cents for you to, I wasn't.

Mary (27:51.91)
Okay, go.

Katie Bickford (28:11.438)
It was like my mom dropped me off at sun, you know, daybreak and picked me up at dusk. You know, it was more like, I think just this kind of like fun thing for kids to do. But I think that it was this thing that was like, it was so exciting to me. But I think the idea, like many times as a little kid of being like, of making friends. I mean, it's just, it's kind of meta because it's sort of

Mary (28:15.901)
Bye!

Katie Bickford (28:37.74)
the whole thing where it's like the friendship. It's like, this is the thing that matters the most when at the end of the day, even in that case, it was just business.

Mary (28:47.037)
Just business, little girls.

Katie Bickford (28:49.388)
Yep, just business young ladies.

All right.

Katie Bickford (29:02.314)
All right, so and scene three. So as a sales leader, this may be surprising for people in the know, but my work besties have been the heads of marketing. I work uncharacteristically closely and affably with marketing compared to the typical adversarial dynamic in most organizations.

But some examples, you when I worked overseas, the head of marketing was my emotional lifeline. And also I'm having dinner next week with head of marketing from another company. But to your point, these were point in time relationships, regardless of how closely we work together and how much a role.

these folks had in sustaining my day -to -day life and even in a way creating some sense of sort of like emotional fulfillment in highly charged environments. In more recent decades, I've experienced several professional betrayals or disappointments with people I'd mistakenly considered authentic relationships. But the ones that have hurt the most were the people I developed professionally who went on

to either stab me in the back or attempt to step over me. In more than one case, I've mistaken ambition for loyalty and even personal connection. So one example is a person I worked with closely and developed into a formidable enterprise sales level executive. And when I went away on vacation,

they quit and left the company for a role making two times the money. I've never, I would never hold someone back from the opportunity to advance. But the fact that they avoided me after I developed them was something I took personally at the time. And I say in this particular case, I remember they made me an elaborate craft project that they left on my desk. So that

Katie Bickford (31:16.488)
So there was at least some sense of guilt that was being expressed. If I were to explain the craft project, it would be too identifying. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to use an example also that is identifying enough that it could get me in trouble, but it's related to being a boss and forming bonds with your direct reports. And in this case, someone who reported to one of my directs, and this fits the ugly.

In this particular case, this person worked for me at a company where I had recognized them as an intern, brought them into my organization and promoted them. When I left that company, they had called me crying hysterically. I was heartbroken to hear how disappointed they were. And quite frankly, I kind of expected it, but it still really affected me. I moved to the new company. I was building

the sales organization from the ground up. And when the time

They joined and worked for a VP who reported to me. At the time, I was incapable of seeing my inappropriate favoritism and emotional attachment. Not only was the person whip smart, I liked them, like really actually adored them. A few brave people would point out to me that I had a blind spot that wasn't fair or appropriate. Their boss was on my leadership team.

And this person seemed to have more of a direct line of communication to me than he did. And there are many examples that I could provide. But if you take the mix of their ambition and my love for their talent and charm, it was like bleach and ammonia and people around it were breathing the fumes. So how this ended was I left the company. I didn't join another company in this case. I went on

Katie Bickford (33:15.372)
to do another project and I immediately stopped hearing from them. So one of the people who had been brave enough to tell me the truth before let me know that this person had used the information their closeness to me, had provided them to claim that my work had been theirs as they grabbed and achieved a higher position. So when this happened, I had a lot going on. So there wasn't

time to lick my wounds about it, but I experienced this as a personal loss. But the reality is that there never was an actual relationship beyond the professional one. And, you know, as we continue to explore in this podcast, clear boundaries, and in this case, reporting structures are our friend.

Mary (34:08.849)
Wow, yeah, I'm vicariously feeling hurt on your behalf as I listen to this. And I'm glad you shared this example with a direct report or someone in your team, right? A more junior person. We both discussed how we've often given too much of ourselves to our jobs on the show and how maybe sometimes we've made it more personal than it should be.

I think your story is a great reminder like that we can't be friends with our directs, right? Like it's just, it breaks, it just breaks a healthy professional boundary. I kind of think of it like the therapy model in the counseling room, like therapists don't break the therapeutic frame. They're not allowed to have a relationship with you outside of the counseling room. I think.

Primarily, and there's probably a whole lot that goes into that, but primarily the power and control dynamic is just too significant. And like you and I, Katie, we're friends and now we're work colleagues, but like I can imagine when a relationship has a power dynamic and a friendship being the boss, it's really almost impossible not to be unbiased, right? Like it's

the objectivity is, I mean, we're human beings. And even if you're superhuman and you can like dissociate yourself and play that role, like to your point, none of your other directs are gonna believe it. They're gonna smell it immediately. what I found interesting in your example is that it went a different way. Like I was expecting like, you you maybe in retrospect

Katie Bickford (35:34.241)
impossible.

Mary (35:59.761)
super unfair, you actually, vulnerability as a friend to a direct gave them an opportunity to have power in the professional realm. It's like based on how they behaved, it seems like that was their probably primary objective, which is really hurtful. And hyper competitive environments, people they're going to do and say whatever they need to get ahead, which is so hard to imagine.

Katie Bickford (36:16.62)
Absolutely. Yeah,

Mary (36:28.337)
when you're a loving kind person and you just really want to like people and you're just like, you

Katie Bickford (36:34.976)
Yeah, and for me, one of the, it's such a, well, for me, it's such a huge motivation to support the development of people. And I think now that I have matured and grown to the point that you're talking about, that I pay particular attention when I'm working with a team about whether

Personally like the person or not and make sure to override that the importance of not favoring people out of personal preference that they're that they're people that I find more likable or more enjoyable that I really focus more on what my function is which is to make them successful and ultimately to support the success of the company and the organization and I will say that that has made life easier

which is, you know, it was counterintuitive. I thought my superpower had a lot to do with these connections I was making with people, especially earlier in my career. And yes, there is a little bit of a cost in terms of, you know, some of the level of connection and commitment. But I think the return on investment as far as the amount of energy and drain that it puts is absolutely like, there's no case to be made for it. It's absolutely.

redefining what the job is as a boss, which is to have the best interest of the entire organization in mind and get out of the way with my, you know, my own personal needs for fulfilling, you know, and like the, interest in having friendships with interesting people, smart people, driven people, people that are like me. So yeah, it's, it's a thing.

Mary (38:25.297)
And

Okay, we're down the track, we're down the finish line.

Katie Bickford (38:32.579)
Yeah, girl.

Mary (38:33.939)
Scene one. Now I'm gonna take a quick sip.

Mary (38:41.571)
And action. If I could do it all over again, I would probably be more selective and patient about building friendships at work. I wouldn't stop looking for expanding relationships with people I admire and find interesting, but I would absolutely take much more time letting the process unfold slowly. It takes a while to truly know someone, especially when you're meeting them in a professional context where you don't expect people to be vulnerable and authentic.

Okay, three lessons for me. One, be friendly. Don't expect friendship. There are numerous benefits to being friendly with the people you work with. And four, do ask them about their weekend and share funny pet stories with one another. Go ahead and contribute 20 bucks to the birthday cake fund and go out for drinks after work. But regardless of what is disclosed to you, maintain your work persona and protect your most vulnerable parts of yourself from your work world.

Remember you are likely to see other people's work personas too, and it's likely that many of these relationships will not endure over time. So be careful about what you choose to give away. Check out episode eight where we talk about not being completely authentic at work. Okay, number two, trust and verify. If you're like me, you're a good friend and you probably expect that others will be

Work situations where you're spending long hours in highly charged environments can accelerate feelings and their intensity. This might skew your perception and judgments about coworkers. Look, it can feel exciting to have a new friend, but proceed with caution. Depending on the kind of political culture you're working in, I'd suggest holding off sharing anything too personal in nature with those you work with, including your boss.

Think about friendship on a scale of one to 10, with one being the barista whose name you know at the local coffee shop and 10 being your soulmate. Think about how each level of friendship might be different. What expectations do you have of others as you let them into your life? What role does vulnerability play? The process of becoming real friends cannot be rushed. Its process includes the unfolding of our truer nature to one another. And finally, three,

Mary (40:59.505)
Evaluate your political environment. I know I keep going back to this, we talk a lot about culture here. There are some great small size companies and even good teams in larger organizations, but people act differently in highly political doggy dog cultures. Even good people can get sucked into Game of Thrones type behaviors because frankly their survival depends on it. I am of the belief that bad cultures are bad for business.

But many people thrive working there and choose to do so for their entire career. Whether you're trying to befriend a cutthroat executive sasson or have grown close to a peer who seems to be suffering alongside you from the stress of your shared toxic workplace, in either case, proceed with caution. It's depressing to say, but in these environments, nearly every person you meet will do what they need to do to survive. And they should.

My advice is to leave nothing to chance and keep your distance. Maybe in some years after you leave, you'll become reconnected with a former colleague and can begin the slow process of getting to know one another. But as long as you're both in it, don't risk

Katie Bickford (42:14.776)
This is really good.

Katie Bickford (42:20.248)
That is really good.

Mary (42:20.677)
No.

Katie Bickford (42:29.358)
Yeah. I like, honestly, I'm telling you, that big pause. You know, I, as you're talking, one of the things is I had this kind of like cringe moment of, whatever reason of remembering that this is probably 15 or so years ago that I had a party and 90 % of the people that were there either worked for me or

were employed by me. that, you know, so there, and it was like, what kind of life was I building? Like, to the point of what kind of liabilities was I creating, which honestly is the previous example, provides, you know, obviously I was making myself a candidate to be taken advantage of, but you know, so, many organizations,

Encourage relationships. So friendships can, you know, can be hardwired in cultural norms, especially in startups with, you know, founder friends, work lunches, dinners, and off sites. you know, that can replicate friendship type behaviors. And there's some upside to this, including the fact that people who trust and like each other will be more collaborative and better at problem solving, but teams.

and teamwork isn't exactly the same as friendship, even if it feels similar. Like many organizations encourage employees to socialize with each other, even sponsoring events to make it happen. This is especially true with younger employees who may not have families and are more likely to be asked to work longer hours than more senior colleagues. Don't get me wrong, it can be really a fun time.

in your career, like thinking about work travel and expense drinks and dinners at fancy restaurants. I have many fond memories of alcohol -fueled evenings and deep conversation with my coworkers and then struggling through hangovers and the meeting next day together, like comrades in arms. In many cases, these remain just that, fond memories.

Katie Bickford (44:51.234)
but recognize the inherent risks involved. For example, many organizations have policies against employees dating or require the couple to disclose themselves to HR. This is done to ensure there's no conflict of interest and favoritism, but also because love relationships, which start at work and can be distracting and problematic when they go wrong, there are no such policies about friendships at work.

the same risk supply. Like if a friendship goes south for whatever reason, what impact might that have on your day -to -day life? Will a falling out with a colleague create unwanted drama in the workplace? How might this kind of complication affect your concentration? What about your mental health? Your primary objective at work is to earn capital to support the life you want. That's what it is.

Friendships can sweeten the pot and make the trade -offs more manageable, but do so cautiously. Losing sight of your main objective at work can impact your ability to make rational decisions. And if you are a leader, introduces the possibility of unconscious bias. It's easy to like some people more than others. It's a very human experience to favor people you might find similar to yourself.

Leaders will benefit from keeping relationships professional, especially with one's direct reports and the people that will report to them. Sharing information that is too personal in nature can not only open a leader up to employee -related issues, but it could undermine your credibility as it often does. Work is an important part of our lives. We're spending 30 to 50 % of our waking time devoted to it.

It could be odd if we didn't make friends with our colleagues, but interpersonal relationships are complicated as is the complexity of work cultures. So when the stars align and it all syncs up, it's possible to meet some of the best friends you'll ever have at work, taking things slowly and cautiously as Mary mentioned, maintaining perspective and context is the best approach.