Episode Five - The Pain and Power of Outgrowing People and Places

Summary

Mary and Katie discuss the process of personal growth and the challenges of outgrowing people and places. They emphasize the importance of self-work and the need to face uncomfortable feelings in order to grow. They also highlight the significance of surrounding oneself with people committed to personal growth and the impact of personal growth on professional relationships. The episode concludes with a discussion on the grief that can accompany outgrowing relationships and the need to redefine relationships that no longer serve one's growth.

Takeaways

• Personal growth requires facing uncomfortable feelings and going through the process of self-work.
• Surrounding oneself with people committed to personal growth is crucial for one's own growth.
• Outgrowing people and places can be accompanied by grief, including grieving a former version of oneself.
• It is important to redefine relationships that no longer serve one's growth.
• Personal growth can have a significant impact on professional relationships and should be considered in change management processes.

Keywords

personal growth, outgrowing people, outgrowing places, self-work, uncomfortable feelings, professional relationships, grief, redefining relationships

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Banter
• 5:14 The Process of Personal Growth and Self-Work
• 21:15 Building Tolerance for Uncomfortable Feelings
• 22:10 Personal Growth in the Workplace
• 24:00 Conclusion and Wrap-Up

Transcript

Mary (00:05.054)
Welcome to the Business Psychos, where we discuss how to navigate the complexity of corporate culture and modern life without becoming a psycho. I'm Mary.

Katie (00:15.15)
and Katie.

Mary (00:17.386)
And we are the business psychos.

Mary (00:22.666)
Hey, Katie.

Katie (00:25.258)
Hey, Mary. How's it going?

Mary (00:26.996)
Yeah

Mary (00:30.754)
Okay, let me know if you hear any birds.

Katie (00:31.79)
Do you have any playful banter?

Katie (00:37.806)
There's...

Mary (00:38.353)
Do I have any playful banter? Not yet, I'm getting there. How about you?

Katie (00:48.49)
You're getting there. Well, you know, I think one of the things is we, we do a lot of our playful bantering in our meeting before you record. So like, I think we might be playfully bantered out. Yeah, we might be bantered out. And the, like, I think one playful banter thing would be at least I guess playful, is that our second episode just came out. So this is episode five. Granted, we're on a little bit of a lag here for

Mary (00:56.19)
Yeah, I'm kind of bantered out.

Mary (01:14.091)
Yes!

Katie (01:18.402)
are gentle and beloved listeners, but we are on episode two that has just released and the response has been so positive that I just want to express a lot of gratitude for everyone that's listening, encouraging, and also that our numbers are putting us already in a advanced percentile as far as listenership relative to most podcasts. So that is...

Mary (01:35.586)
Yes.

Katie (01:48.426)
very exciting development. So that's my playful bit. Is that play? Was that playful?

Mary (01:50.87)
That is awesome. Always data driven. It was playful, and yet it's awesome data. You're like, and let me show you this graph about our growth estimates.

Katie (02:01.586)
Let me show you this playful, delightful graph. Yeah, my graph estimates are in a previous job. So I'm, as a revenue leader, as a previous, as a former revenue leader, I'm obsessed with counting things. I love counting things. I love graphs. I like numbers. I like reports. I like refreshing reports. I like seeing the report show new numbers. I like deals closing. I like counting money.

Mary (02:11.198)
I'm sorry.

Katie (02:31.346)
And one of the things that's really funny is that, to me at least, is that my profile picture in Slack at a company was literally the count from Sesame Street.

Katie (02:47.758)
He's counting so much. So, yeah, if the yeah, it's not something if you meet me, it's going to really like be an initial impression, that's for sure.

Mary (02:51.399)
That's awesome. Very revealing.

Mary (02:59.326)
No, but let's stick. This is like a, like what, which character, which muppet are you kind of personality test. Mine in Slack was Trinity from the matrix. Just was like a shout out to my obsessive operationalizing everything that moved kind of mindset. So, very revealing.

Katie (03:13.665)
I-

Katie (03:24.386)
I love that. I like the, what kind of Muppet are you? Yeah, what kind, who, if you are a Muppet, if you are a Muppet, who would be your Muppet?

Mary (03:29.066)
Look how much it...

Mary (03:36.438)
We actually talked about this, right? Didn't we talk about this the other day? Not personally.

Katie (03:38.91)
Yeah, I want this to be recorded. I want the posterity factor.

Mary (03:44.372)
Yeah, I'd be Kermit. Might be Kermit.

Katie (03:49.339)
Oh, I love that. Oh yeah, that's right. And I'd be Miss Piggy. Truly, really, really. It's so right.

Mary (03:54.429)
So wrong. So wrong. Well, and by the way, Kermit and Miss Piggy loved each other. So that is apt, that we would be those two Muppets.

Katie (04:03.314)
is out. It really is. And they were like, Kermit was like holding it down. Kermit was like really trying to.

Mary (04:11.434)
Sometimes he'd get all crazy. Remember his little nose would scrunch up? He'd be like, ah, I do that too.

Katie (04:15.486)
When you'd be like, but in general, right. And it's adorable. And, but the thing is, I think the personality profiles of both of them, cause you know, Miss Piggy really dropped the, like the agent of chaos energy and I think Kermit was just really trying to, trying to rein it in. It's such.

Mary (04:35.997)
I feel a whole new set of memes coming out of this.

Katie (04:39.19)
There's and I didn't up it I got oh go ahead

Mary (04:41.91)
But today I'm excited.

No, I'm excited. We recently recorded an episode on growth mindset. We have both had a lot of fun. In that episode, we touched on the importance of internal self-work for professional development. And I thought I would share, I don't know if this is cheesy, we can cut it out, Katie, editing. But some time ago, I decided that I was going to live my life with a goal to try to grow and evolve to be the best.

version of myself possible in this lifetime. It's kind of heavy and it's kind of corny, but I thought I would share it because it ties into what we're talking about today. I kind of look at myself like an app that needs ongoing bug fixes, new user requirements, and occasionally a big update with new functionality. And I will say that this all sounds nice, but it can be an unpleasant process.

It can even suck. There, I said it. Sometimes I think I'm doing it and I'm pleased with myself. Everything feels great. And then I get hit with something hard and I realize, oh no, okay, there, that's the growth right there. So usually growth is happening when things feel at their worst.

And talking about growth is less stigmatized these days, which is great. I love that there are lots of places, including podcasts, to talk about stuff which 20 years ago, no one would be caught dead discussing publicly. Today, we're going to discuss aspects of the growth journey that people don't usually talk about. When we come back, we're gonna talk about outgrowing people and places.

Mary (06:35.346)
Next on the business cycles.

Katie (06:37.93)
And actually Mary, to your point, when we met 15 years ago at the meditation retreat, I had either outright, I had either outright lied or misdirected that I wasn't spending my vacation time doing something more hedonistic. Because that was the time in high growth tech.

And I was, you know, I was already different enough as the only woman on the leadership team. I wasn't trying to highlight the significant depths of the differences between me and my colleagues and to confess that I was going to sit on a cushion instead of going to like the Four Seasons in Maui. It was something that I was very mindful about making sure nobody knew what I was doing. When we met.

So to your point about 20 years ago, being like this stuff just was not spoken of, I just, I really want to just kind of ring in that point. So that's my fun.

Mary (07:43.81)
Well, and since then, most recently, you authored the amazing book, The Paranormal Method on personal development. And I can attest that you practice what you preach. Can you share your view about the personal growth journey?

Katie (08:05.138)
Yeah, so I'll start with the quote which opens the book by Hubert Selby Jr. which is that sometimes we have the absolute certainty there's something inside us that's so hideous and monstrous that if we ever search it out we won't be able to stand looking at it but it's when we're willing to come face to face with that demon that we face the angel.

Mary (08:33.186)
Wow. I love this quote in that you bring out the negative right at the start. And sort of the adage where we hurt is where the attention needs to go. I think these days most mental health treatment does focus on human potential rather than the outdated pathology model. Often the focus is developing techniques to draw out patients' creative capacities. I...

I feel that we all hold within our unconscious the capacity to heal, create, and expand our awareness and that this is what leads to a more meaningful connection to life. So to your point, Katie, mental illness isn't some terrible thing that is inside us, but an indication that our potential for growth has been in some way blocked and is unable to express itself.

Katie (09:31.63)
At the top of chapter one, there's the Thomas Merton quote, paraphrased that to fill our ultimate potential happens when we accept ourselves fully as we are. So Parinama isn't necessarily about mental illness or fixing anything. It's a method for understanding our true nature so we can unlock a more fulfilling and enlivened life. There's work to do.

but as an act of ongoing devotion rather than trying to climb a punishing ladder to so-called perfection. I mean, there's nothing wrong with me, there's nothing wrong with you, Mary, or any of our listeners. We aren't all broken. Most of us had events and circumstances that stressed and impacted the development of our nervous system, creating our current reflexive system of system and sense of reality. I mean, we all compensated

in early life by creating coping mechanisms that helped us to survive when the only option was to make the best of our current situation. But as adults, we have the opportunity to address these developmental gaps. And unless you go back in, consciously reclaim with awareness and somatic practice as is done with Parinoma Method, it's easy to be stuck in old patterns.

and believe them to be, you know, so-called reality without showing up for ourselves now and those earlier. So without showing up for ourselves.

Hold on, let me read this.

Mary (11:09.87)
Right. And this is the journey each of us is on and it's not linear. It's common to take three steps forward than two back or not to move at all for some time. It's worth noting that I think, and I'm saying this to myself here, as I often do, you can't approach personal growth like a work or a home improvement project.

This was a hard lesson for me, Katie. I probably am still working on it because I love intellectualizing things. As you know, it makes the messy process feel easier, more in my control, but that's the point. It's, it's not. So no project planning, your emotional self work.

Don't be loading your goals in MS project and then scolding yourself when you don't reach milestones on your preferred schedule. And no, I don't know anyone who might've done that. I'm totally not talking about myself there.

Katie (12:11.081)
We have a guest appearance right now, by the way.

Mary (12:12.608)
We have a third co-host that's joined.

Katie (12:15.95)
Yeah, he's like, he's right in the microphone. Like right in the microphone. It is like, I really, I have to take a picture because it's literally like his face is like, and he just went rare right into it. And my God, if, if I don't figure out a way to keep that in there. Wow. He's never been like this before. He's really, he's like extra cuddly, but anyway, so.

Mary (12:22.653)
That's staying in. So staying in.

Mary (12:31.062)
Alright.

Mary (12:37.775)
Uh-huh.

Katie (12:43.662)
Back to the task of Anne. So yeah, I mean this work is ongoing but

Mary (12:54.73)
Blooper reel.

Katie (12:56.206)
Blooper reel. I know I need to like, holy cow. Luke, you're not, yeah, it's literally, wait, he's coming back for more. No, he's gonna just sit there. He's gonna make the best of the situation. But yeah, okay. So this work is ongoing, but it changes. And in my experience, it becomes more enjoyable after going through some of the initial stuff.

Mary (13:01.536)
Spot the cat.

Mary (13:08.322)
I'm sorry.

Katie (13:26.898)
like a stage we can stay stuck in if we think the practice is going to be always terrible, like why keep going? And if we approach our growth as linear, it becomes another excuse for self-loathing. So we are so goal-oriented and outcome-driven in the West, we are thinking about investments and returns. Should I do this personal work that's going to be hard, take time, money? Even...

Mary (13:41.778)
Mmm.

Katie (13:52.838)
if there is no promise of some golden prize at the end, it's no wonder that a lot of people don't bother to do the work.

Mary (14:01.854)
Yes, especially because there are a lot of people who may be struggling with basic life challenges, like a job that pays the bills or chronic health issues. There are also some folks who are suffering so much that their day-to-day functioning isn't great. They may not have the internal or external resources just yet to do the work. I have a lot of love and empathy for these folks because I've been there myself.

I send love out to everyone doing the best they can right now. And I want to say our discussion today isn't to shame these people or position ourselves as, as somehow superior. You start where you are and you go from there. As I said, I've, I've been stuck myself and all we can do is talk about it and support each other and, and accept where we are at the time.

Katie (14:54.098)
Yeah, there is the very practical reality of physical survival. I have definitely also been one of these people feeling like a slouch for not doing yoga, meditation, you know, drinking enough water, eating clean, you know, doing an, and even doing the internal reflective work. But you know, I was building my career and the financial security that made it possible to produce Parinama method came out of the time that I was coming out of.

completely absorbed in a life that had absolutely nothing to do with this kind of deeper self-work. And the reality is it's actually pretty elitist to fault people for not doing the deeper work. It takes resources with the most basic and expensive ones being time and energy. And for those who can dig into their inner world and start work, guess what?

there is another thing that's going to happen. As you shed your skin, you'll find that the things from your former self's life are different. In some cases, you may find that things that you used to enjoy just don't work for you anymore.

Mary (16:10.438)
exactly right. When we come back we're going to discuss outgrowing people and places.

So we are back talking about outgrowth. And there is an analogy perhaps more universally relatable as an analogy is moving to a new apartment or home. There's a period in between. First, when you're in the old house, but all of your things are boxed up and packed and it's no longer a home. And then you move into your new house and it takes a while to unpack and settle in and make it feel like it is your home.

Growth has uncomfortable inbetweens and the trick is being ready to move, ready to withstand the in-between and not mistake that discomfort as a sign that you're moving in the wrong direction. And imagine even if you do go back at some point, so if you do go back to the old ways and your old home, which happens in a growth cycle, you will likely ebb and flow.

and return to patterns that you think that you would never do again, because now you can't unsee it, but you somehow managed to unsee it, is at some point, at some point you no longer fit in the old home. And by the time you recognize you've outgrown your old house, it's too late to stay, and the urgency to leave will be considerable. This can create some good momentum, but with end of your rope,

Katie (18:17.422)
quote unquote, you know, end of your rope urgency, you may still have to do more to make that new house ready, forcing decisions that are not ideal, which can make the process particularly challenging, but it's not unusual to change this way.

Mary (18:36.094)
And even with that momentum, there's grief in the process. I don't think we talk about this enough. That old house holds lots of memories and comforts. You know exactly what your couch is gonna feel like, how to set that wonky thermostat, how to open the sticky drawer that you never bothered to get fixed. You can walk through that old house in the middle of the night and know your way around by memory because you've been there so long.

It's comfortable and that makes you feel safe. But the momentum to grow, like a genie out of a bottle, can't be put back and all the nostalgia and love for the old house can often become replaced by boredom, even irritability. When you grow and leave that old house, or a job, or a relationship, you can be hit with overwhelming grief.

In my personal experience, you aren't just grieving the people or place you've outgrown. You're also grieving a former version of yourself which doesn't exist anymore.

Katie (19:43.262)
Ooh, yes. And there can also be grief around awareness itself. So let's say you are Sally, who because of her childhood finds critical emotionally withholding or even abusive people familiar and therefore gravitates towards the comfort of their familiarity. And so as a result, she ends up choosing relationship dynamics with bosses, partners, or friends that diminish her. So...

Imagine she comes to realize the connection between her relationships and her childhood. She gathers strength, leaves the abusive dynamics and decides she's happier. Or maybe she finds supportive friends, colleagues, partner. And as part of this process, she may find herself grieving her, like she may find herself grieving the childhood she never had. She may find herself grieving the childhood she never had.

and now realizes she deserved, okay, reread. She may find herself grieving the childhood she never had and now realizes she deserved. And even processing the so-called lost time required to come to terms with herself. I'm gonna reread that. It's like, I'm, okay. As part of the process, she may even find herself grieving for her childhood, for a childhood she never had.

and now she realizes she deserved. And even processing the so-called lost time required to come to terms with this, this can pack a real punch.

Mary (21:24.386)
The quote which resonated with me said something to the effect of unhealthy, familiar can be more appealing than healthy, unfamiliar.

I think one thing I can relate to is having a risk averse wiring system makes us change avoidant to start. Then we start the work and all the negative feelings we hold inside come out. Anxiety, fear, shame, guilt, sadness, anger, all the scary things we hate to experience and see in ourselves. I think what we're really saying, Katie, is that to grow, you're going to need to build a tolerance for facing these kinds of feelings.

And in fact, you and I recently had a little growth experience in our friendship.

Katie (22:11.138)
We knew it was going to happen. You and I talk about this stuff all the time. So it didn't come out of thin air. We've been friends for 15 years, but with this podcast changed the nature of our relationship. I said to you something like, we are going to have to level up the friendship by having a bite.

Mary (22:11.926)
Ha ha ha.

Mary (22:17.622)
Yeah.

Katie (22:35.313)
I'm sorry.

Mary (22:35.414)
and I thought that sounded good, though I think I said disagreement instead of fight. I said, no, it'll be a disagreement. Deeper down my intellectual side was like, yeah, sure, sure. But honestly, I was hoping that if I navigated things well enough, my perfectionistic brain, that we could avoid it.

Katie (23:00.247)
Yeah, avoiding the feelings part.

Mary (23:03.07)
Absolutely. That's my old coping mechanism.

Katie (23:08.47)
Then you got pissed off and you couldn't avoid the feelings anymore.

Mary (23:13.696)
I had a lot of feelings come up. Some were related to you, but I'm also aware that not all of them were. I know my triggers and my window of tolerance. For our listeners who haven't heard that term before, window of tolerance describes the target zone where you're neither emotionally shut down or overwhelmed. I had a lot of strong emotions and shared them with you. I didn't want to.

but I couldn't contain it. The feelings were flooding my body. And the old me would have absolutely contained it, either pushed it out of awareness or forced me to ignore it.

Katie (23:53.15)
Yeah, what changed? Why express it this time?

Mary (23:59.178)
Because of where I am in my life right now, which includes our relationship, previous versions of myself, it was very important for me to try to please everyone. Dealing with difficult feelings was not something I wanted to deal with, especially if that meant disrupting the status quo or making someone upset with me, especially someone as important to me as you are.

Katie (24:25.034)
Yeah, but what you're describing isn't a way of being and satisfying growing and sustaining relationships.

Mary (24:33.226)
Right? For a long time, it felt like it was more important to make people happy than to be authentic.

Katie (24:42.77)
Yeah. And people, people who are healthy, like, you know, and healthy being a relative term, but you know, the, will, will really respect and value your authenticity, you know, healthy, authentic people will find it unfulfilling, I find, and I have been a unhealthy person. So I've been on the flip side of this, but

You know, I think authentic people find it unfulfilling to have relationships with people who aren't fully conscious and able to interact in genuine ways. I mean, we are going to piss each other off. It's natural and human. And part of being human is the so-called shadows, like fearfulness, shame, anger that arise. And there are two primary directions for these feelings to go, either outward as a conflict to be resolved or inward as resentment.

Mary (25:39.786)
Yes, I have a close friend of mine. She's been divorced for a while now. She told me she was surprised her marriage ended because they never fought once in 15 years. And then she went into therapy and realized that was sort of a big clue that disagreements are part of the normal human experience and expressing them is human. But sometimes we can experience things in our childhood.

which often reprogram us to be more acceptable in many ways.

Katie (26:12.146)
Yeah, it's common for children, especially girls, to be socialized that if we're bad or disagreeable, that we will face scorn, punishment, or even lose approval and love of our parents. Maybe even be abandoned for expressing true thoughts and feelings. I will say, Mary, that during our disagreement, I never felt this was going to blow us up. It sucked. I was very sad for a few days.

And it wasn't until we talked it through that I felt completely relieved. So at the top of episode four, we have a really good giggle that for me was part of the relief and joy of coming out of the conflict and feeling our friendship was stronger than before. The conflict itself wasn't a pleasant feeling for me to have, and I knew you weren't feeling good.

But deep down, I knew we would not only be okay, but be closer and stronger for having gone through it.

Mary (27:14.442)
I did too, Katie, truly. I think it's because our relationship that I was comfortable ultimately expressing myself to you, that maybe subconsciously I felt safe enough with you to even allow these feelings to come up and out. I think that subconscious also knew that because you've done a lot of work that you could handle it, handle me, like I wouldn't be too much. And I think this experience reinforces

a new standard in my life for relationships. And this is why I think it's crucial to surround yourself with people who are committed to personal growth. Having authentic interactions with people who have the emotional capacity for introspection and the willingness to go through the rupture and repair process like we did supports our growth.

Katie (28:09.906)
Yeah, you're so great. You're, you're, you're as close. You're as close to perfect as it comes. And so this for me and for the world. But so, and you know, so, and because this is a business podcast, I will not only mention, so I will not only mention that this dynamic between us surfaced as we were producing something together. So the professional relevance is that conflicts between colleagues and co-founders

Mary (28:11.746)
They're so great.

Mary (28:15.614)
Oh my goodness, you're so kind. You're so, this is ridiculous. Yeah.

Katie (28:39.242)
may be dismissed as kind of like emotional work or fluffy, but it is usually a major contributing factor to setbacks in the progress of a company or department. And so when I build leadership teams or when I do advising and consulting that has people working together on shared goals, I will do an early meeting where I flag what I see as the potential interpersonal issues that I suspect to arise as hypothetical examples.

For example, saying, Colin, you are going to be more visible and possibly get more credit. Let's talk about how Dave feels about this as a potential issue and how we can potentially stay out in front of this. So it's not, so this stuff is real and these types of conflicts can be major dividing points of division with leaders. So dealing with this stuff is actually a hack for your professional success.

And also I'll add, it's not possible to put the genie back in the bottle for this stuff once you see it and once you start using it and seeing how potent and powerful it is, it is hard to turn back. But seeing ourselves for who we really are and loving ourselves despite our shadows is the work. Once you start doing that, you won't wanna turn to the old friendship models again. They will feel empty and you'll either need to shrink yourself to make it work.

or you'll be bored and frustrated by what the other person isn't able to give you.

Mary (30:12.482)
That's a fantastic point, Katie, and it makes me think about change management. That's something I focused most of my career on and what I do in my advisory work. When I first started doing large-scale change and complex organizations, I thought it was all about the people process technology. It was like a good solution and we just had to go around and tell everybody what to do. And then you realize that it's the personalities and it's the subconscious and the interactions.

and that that's usually what ends up derailing large-scale change or any kind of change, really. And so change readiness and adoption and all that kind of stuff. So many organizations get it wrong because it does sound fluffy. It does sound like what we're talking about here, like, you know, deal with that on your own time. This is a really important initiative. We're not dealing with that. Well, we're all people, and until we're all replaced by AI, it's a really big component.

Katie (30:46.68)
Big time.

Mary (31:09.478)
We can derail a pretty complicated change management program pretty quickly. I also, I was really struck by you talking about the genie being out of the bottle, which I think is a good thing. And as you said, sometimes you can go backwards and forwards, but there is a momentum once you start to see and feel how things can be different. It does start to take a life of its own.

If you're me, you try to bring everyone along with you. That's another one of my coping mechanisms. I'm a big fixer. But I've come to realize that it's not possible to fix other people or make them who you want them to be. And frankly, not everyone wants to grow and that's okay. And many people won't, and that's also okay. I think then the challenge comes with redefining the relationship.

so that your personal growth isn't impacted by lack of theirs.

Katie (32:12.394)
Yeah, if the relationship has outgrown itself in terms of it being a healthy or appropriate matchup, severing it completely might be the right thing to do, as unpopular as a notion as that is. Or at least, I mean...

at least reducing the space it takes up in your life. So you have more room for relationships on your level or better yet people who will inspire you to grow further. Either way, you need to let go of the old relationship and stop trying to make it work for both of you. Let go and wish the best for the person. I mean, one thing I'd mention here is that, oftentimes when we end relationships, if we do not have a

firm footing and understanding that people just outgrow each other and it doesn't, you don't need villains and heroes in these dynamics. There's just a much more like natural ebb and flow and growth and contraction in life. Then it's easier to just see that and really accept that person also deserves people that are a better match.

and more simpatico with the way that they're operating. So they're having more satisfying friendships and relationships for where they're at in their life. So when we come back, we're going to wrap up our chat on outgrowing people and places.

Beep beep beep.

Mary (33:52.93)
We are back. Katie, this was a topic we've been wanting to talk about from the very beginning. It was on the original topic list. We talked about doing a podcast and I liked that we shared more about ourselves today.

Katie (34:11.35)
Yeah, I was excited about this one too. There's more to talk about, but I would love to hear from our audience about their experiences with outgrowing people and places. Everyone doing this challenging work deserves a call out for pushing yourselves into uncomfortable territory.

Mary (34:30.378)
1000%. And while we didn't focus a lot on the work environment in this one, as you said before, Katie, it's very much entwined with one's career development. When you become aware of who you really are and what you need, you may find that your current job or even career doesn't work for you anymore. I have a friend of mine who was an accountant who now owns a dive operation in the

Mary (34:59.17)
coffee and chocolate cafe, and a third, a former doctor, who hung up his scrubs to run a bike shop in a small town.

Katie (35:09.578)
Yeah, no job or relationship is ever going to be perfect, of course, but through self-knowledge and growth, we can get closer to living a life best suited for us.

Mary (35:22.07)
Right. Well, this was a great show, Katie. Thank you.

Katie (35:28.546)
Thank you, Mary. Bye everybody.

Mary (35:31.894)
Bye for now.