Episode Two - Mental Health at Work: Breaking the Silence and Building Resilience

In this episode of Business Psychos, Katie and Mary discuss the impact of mental health on the workplace and share tips on how to take care of oneself and our teams. They highlight the importance of addressing mental health openly and the need for self-awareness. The conversation covers themes such as productivity reduction, work quality, impact on morale, and the role of managers in navigating these situations. They emphasize the significance of self-care, regular check-ins, and creating a safe space for open communication. The episode concludes with practical strategies for managers to support their teams' mental health.

In the discussion:

• Mental health has a significant impact on productivity, work quality, and morale in the workplace.
• Regular check-ins and open communication are essential for supporting mental health in teams.
• Managers should prioritize self-care and create a safe space for employees to discuss their mental health.
• Addressing mental health openly and seeking support can lead to better overall well-being and performance.
• Managers should evaluate their work style and ensure it is not contributing to their team's stress.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Personal Experiences
• 2:00 The Impact of Mental Health on the Workplace
• 9:33 Supporting Mental Health: Tips for Managers
• 16:14 Creating a Safe Space for Open Communication
• 21:00 Addressing Mental Health: A Manager's Role
• 28:00 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

Katie (00:00.727)
Welcome, I'm Katie Bickford.

Mary (00:03.782)
and I'm Mary Schaub.

Katie (00:06.382)
And we are the business psychos where we have real talk about how to get the financial and developmental benefits of professional life while minimizing the impact on our humanity. So Mary, how are you doing?

Mary (00:25.671)
I'm having a blast with you. First of all, like, can I just say, this is everything I wanted it to be. I am so excited that we're doing this.

Katie (00:35.95)
Ah, well, that's it.

Mary (00:36.114)
That's it.

Mary (00:40.118)
That's it. It's warm here, spring sprung here in New York City. I'm happy about that. I've got my energy back. I feel like a different person. I'm looking forward to spending more time out in the sun. It's all good.

Katie (00:52.47)
Well, you have the best of both worlds, tranquility in the Hamptons and a place in the greatest city in the world, New York City. And so we've recorded one usable episode so far and which I've been editing. And all I'll say right now is that this should be a personal development technique. It has been a forcing function for self-awareness, hearing.

how some of my statements come off differently than they feel coming out. And I'm not even going to talk about my vocal affect and my very liberal use of like and you know. Oh, PS and by the way, you are great and require very little editing. I'll leave it, I'll leave it at that for now.

Mary (01:42.678)
You're very kind. Yeah, you're jinxing me though, so when I mess up, then it's your fault. So anyway, I am looking forward to discussing our topic today. It's near and dear to my heart, mental health at work. So let's get started.

Hey, today on Business Psychos, we are discussing how mental health effects work and sharing tips, how you can take control. Redo. Today on Business Psychos, we are discussing how mental health effects work and sharing tips on how you can take care of yourself and your teams. Katie, this is a personally meaningful topic for me. I have family and friends who have suffered with mental illness. I've done my own self work over the years.

Katie (02:00.718)
Let's get started.

Mary (02:30.806)
I'm not happy that so many people are suffering, but I am glad that we're talking more openly about it.

Katie (02:39.102)
Agreed. I don't think mental health has been a topic for the workplace up until just recently. And story time. My first professional job was as a pharmaceutical rep for Eli Lilly. And for those blissfully unaware, Lilly brought the first modern antidepressant, also known as an SSRI, to the world. So I joined.

In 2001 when fluoxetine, AKA Prozac, was about to go off patent. So we had cases of 30 day bottles. Pretty unusual. A sample is typically for a week or so. Now everything that follows is a hypothetical scenario that could have happened to someone in my position because the samples and their distribution are regulated by the government.

Mary (03:21.383)
Ha ha!

Mary (03:30.462)
I'm gonna go.

Katie (03:38.314)
So hypothetical, let's say a pharmaceutical rep who had put themselves through college working full time with a very strained family dynamic, working so much they had no time to think was now making good money, had some free time, and was able to finally take stock of the conditions of their personal situation. Now let's say this was generating a decent amount of despair.

And I was, I mean, they were driving around with a car full of pills. When they hit a bump, it sounded like a maraca. So even though I worked for the company talking about depression, it still wasn't anything to bring up about yourself. So whether this hypothetical rep reached into her samples, I'll leave up to, I'll leave up to listeners.

Mary (04:12.571)
Oh my god.

Mary (04:33.746)
We can imagine.

Katie (04:35.49)
listeners imagination, but what I will say is that a few years later when I was back in the pit of despair, no longer working for Lilly, Prozac samples long gone, I went to my doctor and asked them to put me on Prozac and they said, why are you so confident it works? There's no history in your chart.

And so I was referred to a therapist, which wound up opening a lot of doors for my capability to believe in my ability to lead. So the timing was great. But when I started out, it was not acceptable to openly talk about this. And because it's addressed at arm's length, people tend to feel alone. And it wasn't until I was a leader and I had a broader view that I could see the prevalence of folks struggling, yet there's still a wider denial of this.

Mary (05:31.014)
Yeah, I'm thinking that during COVID, talking about wellness was a little more normalized. It felt like it was the beginning of any conference call because we were all like hunkered down. I remember saying unprecedented times. I remember using that term like all the time. And it was like, hey, we have a little bit of permission to talk about this because we're all going through this like crazy time.

I've read the statistics, I've seen some stories online. I personally feel that since COVID, things have gotten worse. You know, Katie, I have some feelings about social media, which I'm gonna table for today's topic. But I'm gonna start by saying, I feel that it is worse out there. What are your perspectives on the last couple years, mental health, has it gotten, is it as bad as everyone says it is and feels it is?

Katie (06:27.142)
Well, I would say absolutely. Uh, you know, and even to take a wider viewpoint, you know, post industrial revolution, like revolution work is unnatural and the dehumanizing aspect is it's accelerating. So working like this is relatively new for humans. So in the 1800s, you had factories, which at least involved physical activity. But then in the 1960s.

computers started sedentary office life. And then in the eighties, the Milton Friedman economics of shareholder over stakeholder, like company profits over worker benefits took hold and built momentum. And now we're at a point where folks are losing their jobs with no notice over email. So there's, and look, there's a nature versus nurture component to mental health, but ultimately the nurture or the conditions of daily life are becoming increasingly hard.

Mary (07:26.718)
Well, the data would support what you're saying, Katie. So as of two years ago, about one in four adults in America has a mental health condition. And over the last two to three years, suicide rates are up by 3%. And that's pretty worrying statistics. And I am so used to being data-driven that I wanted to put some statistics here, but I also wanna pause myself because there are a lot of people behind those numbers.

Katie (07:55.018)
Yeah, and many of these people, they're employees. These are people on your teams. They are your direct reports. Maybe you are the leader in an organization and you are suffering.

Mary (08:11.814)
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking about each one of these folks turning up at work and going through the motions every day, feeling shitty maybe, depressed, anxious, signing onto Zoom calls and watching themselves in that little self view to make sure that their misery isn't showing. And I'm...

I'm kind of struck by this idea of struggling mentally in an environment where you have to hide that suffering as well as perform really well right through it and how tough that is and how it just grinds you down and makes your condition worse.

Katie (08:56.238)
Whew. Yeah. And we should add, you know, for those unmoved by human suffering, that there's an enormous financial cost. You know, like employee, employees that are happy are more productive, but mental health conditions, they costs billions in lost revenue. And they have a significant impact on the U S economy. So Mary, when we come back, we're going to dig deeper.

into how mental health shows up for work.

Mary (09:33.822)
We are back talking about mental health at work. So Katie, this is a big topic, huge.

Katie (09:41.674)
Mm-hmm Yeah, we aren't going to have time today to do it justice. I think we need to come back to this in a future episode There's a lot here and it's all very important right now but for now Yeah, like for now, let's look at the big picture and talk about productivity reduction in work quality and Impact on morale

Mary (09:55.481)
A thousand percent.

Mary (10:07.994)
Yeah, I think the idea of maybe how it feels, how it turns up, right? Because it's easy to look at these statistics and say, all right, if this many Americans are suffering, they're all in the workplace. And then what does that mean? Is someone driving the forklift into a shelf? Or how does this actually manifest itself? And I think it affects the entire ecosystem of the workplace.

And I think if it's serious enough and it goes on for long enough, it might even impact the culture. I think like a very obvious one that you just mentioned, productivity. So your mental health conditions are going to show up as increased short-term disability and leave of absence rates. It's also going to increase sick days. It might mean people are coming in late or leaving early more frequently. And if you're lucky and...

you don't work in an organization that has very rigid fixed capacity models. Maybe you can address that by throwing some more roles, getting some like staff aug you get some temp labor in to help. But in most cases, I think you're gonna start to see project and product teams adjusting their initiative timelines or release dates. Ultimately for everybody, I think it's gonna mean spreading the work out across everybody who's left to compensate.

Katie (11:37.095)
Yeah. Reduction in work quality also is another way I see mental health conditions affecting the workplace. You know, people who are struggling may not be able to perform consistently at the level they once did. They may be distracted. You know, they may overlook important details, make more errors. All of these factors, they be, you know, they're all these factors are intertwined. And why does this matter?

Well, we're looking at the decline of how we all experiencing the functioning world of products and services. And I think quite quitting may tie into this. A member of staff without mental health issues could easily become resentful when they experience coworkers who are checked out or their workloads increase because more colleagues are out. So, you know, so Mary, so I can see how.

Mary (12:12.545)
Mm.

Mary (12:17.662)
I agree.

Katie (12:34.518)
this could compound, you know, and ultimately lead to a strong team slipping to mediocrity pretty quickly.

Mary (12:43.294)
Absolutely. So I have seen this, and these are in the before times, before we were talking about this kind of stuff. And I think it's scary because as a leader, it can feel very out of your control. It is almost contagious. It starts to spread a little bit, it erodes performance. I think that it could lead to a low performing culture over time. It might start to attract people.

more new hires for whom that kind of low performing environment suits everybody really well. And then it becomes the norm. I also want to add collaboration as another way mental health conditions show up at work. So people who aren't feeling well may be less likely to offer or even be able to receive support from colleagues. And this can really negatively affect intra and inter team dynamics.

And from my experience, if you're working in a very large or a complex matrixed organization, this is gonna have some serious consequences right away. I've seen folks anxious and depressed start to withdraw. Their communication styles are different. Maybe they're even irritable or people will just report them as being difficult to be around and they can't really put their finger on it. It's just like, you know.

Katie (14:05.941)
Yeah.

Mary (14:06.402)
Sally, I'm just gonna always use these generic names, by the way, so if your name is Sally, I don't know any Sally, so I'm gonna use these generic names. You know, Sally, I don't know, it's just she's not approachable and she always seems like I'm bothering her, right? We all have had people be reported to us and when we ask for more information, it almost feels like it's hard to really put your finger on. And I think where this can be really problematic.

Katie (14:10.476)
Okay.

Mary (14:33.794)
is in the escalation of risks and issues. This sounds really specific, but I think from my experience, it's been drilled into my head for so long. Having employees on the lookout for problems is important culturally for any industry that you work in, but even more so in highly regulated industries, where you want your employees to feel very invested in the health of the company and protecting the company's best interests. And if you're suffering, that's really gonna be the last thing on your mind.

Katie (15:04.838)
That's really important. Absolutely. So for today, our final example, in terms of talking about where mental health impacts work. So let's talk a little bit about morale and imagining an environment where people are checked out either physically or mentally. Less work gets done and what is done isn't great and into...

you know, add into this poor communication skills and lower collaboration, and you're going to see people get pissed off and morale plummet. This is a tricky situation for managers to navigate. Even if you know for sure that people are struggling, you can't share this information openly. And even if you could, it wouldn't solve the problem. So when it, so we're just gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll...

about what managers can do to navigate these situations.

Mary (16:14.29)
We are back talking about the prevalence of mental health conditions and how they affect the workplace. So Katie, we talked about how it might feel to work on a team with coworkers who are struggling. Now we're gonna talk about how people can navigate these situations while taking care of both themselves and their teams. What are your thoughts?

Katie (16:38.346)
Well, first of all, take care of yourself. You know, as you've said in previous conversations, it's the emergency oxygen analogy, take care of yourself so you have enough in your tank to support others. We're not pouring from an empty or depleted cup. And I see happiness as having two primary components. How we're feeling right now.

and your sense of relative optimism for the future. So let's look at this in three components. So day-to-day, how you're feeling now, long-term and ongoing self-advocacy. So on the day-to-day, I think that really like small, impactful check-ins. So for one is I do, I recommend

quick check-in where you assess your physical, mental, or rather your physical, emotional and mental state, how you feel on a scale of one to ten. So you look at how do I feel physically? One through ten. How do I feel emotionally? One through ten. How do I feel mentally? One through ten. And this is just to bring consciousness and attention to these very various facets of

what it feels like to be you right now. There isn't even any necessary action that needs to be taken. It's just doing a check-in and making yourself present to how you're feeling right now. Another thing is using breath and using breath effectively and understanding that an inhale activates the sympathetic activating nervous system and an exhale activates the parasympathetic rest and restoration part of our nervous system.

So if you need energy, it's really, it's an emphasis on taking deep breaths. And if you need relaxation, it's an emphasis on exhales. So, you know, you get people who will say like, Oh, you're stressed out. Take a big, deep breath. And in some ways that actually is, you know, I mean, it's better than not taking a breath, but it's also making you more stimulated. So using breath effectively. And.

Katie (19:00.286)
Even having little tools, one that I use and like to recommend is the exercise of having your own back. And that is just bringing yourself into your present state in the moment and scanning your body by starting at your heels and the bottoms of your feet and just bringing your attention there and drawing your focus as you look at your heels.

and then the backs of your legs and your calves, kind of scanning up and just noticing the backs of your knees and your hamstrings.

up to your bum, lower back.

through the back of your abdomen, then to your shoulder blades, and then just explore the backs of your arms a little bit. Bring your attention to the back of your neck, the back of your head, the top of your head, and just use this quick moment of checking in to take yourself out of whatever state that you're in. And also, I don't, you know, for me, I experience something that transcends rational explanation.

when it comes to checking in with how the back of my body feels. There's just something, I don't know. I love that one, but there's also longer term. So I don't know. Do you have any, do you have anything that you use as far as kind of like daily short term?

Mary (20:32.061)
Um, well, I'm

Well, I'm a big fan of journaling, which I think gets into your daily awareness. I was really excited as you were saying this and I was thinking, gosh, I should do that because I cope through intellectualization. Like I know my thing, right? That's my go-to coping mechanism is intellectualization. So.

The risk is that I'm gonna open up that journal, but I'm not gonna be talking how I feel, right? So I really liked your first recommendation where you're asking yourself how you feel on those three dimensions. And I'm thinking I should probably add that to my journaling because my journaling ends up being much more kind of in my head. And I actually am really not tuned in to myself. So.

I think what I'm gonna do is I have a daily reminder to drink more water, Katie, you'll appreciate this. And I think I'm gonna add to that. It's like, cause I don't drink water at all. So I'm gonna add like my daily water. It's like, have I, you know, like by noon, I should have drunk like two of these, right? And so I'm just gonna maybe do a check-in on like that like kind of body scan. But I'm a big proponent of journaling, even if it is you're talking about all the things on your task list.

Katie (21:21.646)
to.

Mary (21:42.234)
It's just some time for yourself. And inevitably, as you start to get more comfortable making that space for you, I think more things start to come out naturally. So I'm a big fan of that. I think the other thing that I would, oh, go ahead. I think the other thing I would recommend, and this is more, I think for outside, would be just normalizing, talking about mental health with everyone. So friends, family, your colleagues, I think.

Katie (21:53.259)
Yeah, that's it.

Katie (21:56.942)
Nope.

Mary (22:12.218)
I think the things that stay hidden are the things that hurt us the most. And even though you don't feel like you wanna share when you don't feel well, it really is, I think, a very powerful statement of self-advocacy, as you were saying. And I think it has this follow-on effect of making other people feel more comfortable. I...

I do think that there are some people, and maybe I am peripherally included in this category, who are managers who maybe feel a little uncomfortable being too vulnerable or opening up too much to their teams. And so they hear this advice and they're like, well, you know, I don't know if I really wanna do that. And I think what I would say to folks who feel this way is that a small, sincere gesture.

is really good. Like you do not have to dump your entire guts out on the Zoom call and tell everyone in your organization all the things that are worrying you. I have personally found that people really appreciate just simple acts of kindness and even some pretty generic sharing that's maybe not about work. I personally...

Katie, you know I love to garden or I talk about loving to garden. I'm really bad at it. And I used to talk about it all the time. It was one of those hobbies I picked up during COVID. It was a little bit of a distraction tool and something to kind of get me focused on something else. And then I started to talk about it at work and it kind of became its own thing.

Katie (23:27.775)
Yeah.

Mary (23:44.85)
if you know what I mean. It was just something to fill the first three minutes of the Zoom call when everyone's kind of getting themselves settled in and we're waiting for Sally to join because she's late and I would just say, oh yeah, so I'm thinking of planting this and oh hey, this thing's come up and then all of a sudden, gosh, if I got a tomato, everyone was getting a damn picture of that tomato. It was like, it was out for distribution. And this is not deep stuff.

It's not even vulnerable personal stuff. But people actually seem to appreciate it. I think they did anyway. You can probably find out after this airs where people were like, no, we were bored, we hated it. But people started to send me gardening tips. They were sharing pictures of their beautiful gardens. And I felt like at least for some people who maybe were not gonna just reach out to me on any other topic, this was some safe ground for us to sort of join and talk about some non-work things.

which ultimately was helpful.

Katie (24:41.662)
Yeah, well, you know, if you look at the book I wrote, you can see what my hobby is. In terms of in terms of light, light conversation, not available, but, you know, but to make to make good of also, you know, discussing on like a longer term outlook. We talked a bit about, you know, the short term in the moment, but also in the longer term outlook. You know, like

Mary (24:47.724)
Yeah

Mary (24:52.954)
Yeah, like conversation. Yeah.

Katie (25:11.326)
Assessing your values and establishing whether you're on a treadmill or making progress towards things that really matter to you. And, you know, there's the Thomas Merton quote that getting old is reaching the top of the ladder and realizing you climbed the wrong one. So investing in tapping into what is uniquely meaningful and satisfying for you and determine if you're on a course to achieve it. And

One side note I'll make on this is this can be this notion can be very activating for people because they can say I don't have a choice. I'm stuck in the on the treadmill. And so this is, and I'll just as a side note here as a placeholder, I'll say this is some of the something where Parinama, you know, method is very helpful.

and a larger conversation than what we have the time for here. But I want to respect the fact that this can be very activating for people to hear that, you know, or even registered as shame or I'm doing something wrong, that I don't have this fully figured out. But it's a real shame to have that sense that you should know the answer, though you do not, hold you back from investigating it. Because once again,

you know, back to like a life of regretting having not actually done something, um, you know, when there might've been the opportunity to. And, you know, and one thing I w I just want to speak on as far as self advocacy is concerned is that the reality is that most employers are not trying to solve your mental health issues and your behavior is taken at face value. So being in denial and avoiding your mental health is it's bad for your career.

And because not having support and protections when you need them comes at a cost. Like avoiding a diagnosis that employers, you know, well, so avoiding a diagnosis means that employers have no legal obligation to accommodate you. And also, if you're feeling conflicted about bringing your mental health to an employer, just getting support for yourself can be a survival lifeline.

Katie (27:34.138)
And earlier, so, but earlier I talked about my own experience, but it's worth noting that I never raised my needs to an employer. Well, I've, well, I have found a lot of fulfillment in helping members of my organization's pursue therapy. I have never, you know, I have never brought forward any, um, you know, like any requests for accommodation. So I am.

Certainly not in a position to shame anyone who doesn't feel comfortable doing so. So I just want to kind of put a note in on that. And I guess like, you know, you know, any, you know, in any joking aside, you know, one thing I think managers should do is evaluate their work style and consider if it's contributing to your team's stress. This is where a little self awareness and

Parinama go a long way. You don't wanna be the manager who's speaking at a conference about the importance of self care, while at the same time you're stressing out your team and having them wrestle with unclear objectives or unrealistic expectations. You'll contribute to what you've been talking about. You'll contribute to what we've been talking about today.

And you know, it won't help your manager brand integrity either. And you'll either look out of touch or just be a disingenuous hypocrite.

Mary (29:06.07)
Ouch. So that's the worst. I don't know anyone like that, Katie. I've never come across someone like that in my career. So, I have one last one and it's like very Mary-esque fashion. It's gonna be a tactical one because I love my tactical stuff as you know. I'm a strong believer in having good hygiene around employee check-ins and very similar to what you said earlier about checking in with yourself.

managers should be replicating that by checking in with their teams. And given everything that we've talked about, prioritizing one-on-one time is really, really important. We have all been in environments where you're running late, you're sending a message, I'm 10 minutes, you know, and then you end up having 10 minutes with the direct, it ends up being about projects to work. And you wanna be that manager that knows your employees, that's asking the right questions, but frankly, in a really...

fast-paced environment, that stuff's gonna get deprioritized super quick, or you're gonna try to push it into a 10-minute remaining call, and the person is just gonna feel, I think, appropriately uncomfortable opening up in that constrained period of time. So I think even if you need to set up a standing call, which is we're just checking in on you, right? We're not talking about project A or initiative B. This is just space for us to talk about how you're doing.

This is where you can get to know your directs. You can get to know what their interests are. And you can also ask them outright outside of that other conversation, hey, that project you're on is pretty stressful. Like, how are you doing with that? Is there anything I can do to help support you? And somehow like separating it from the work conversation I think creates a little bit of a space where we can put our human hats on for a second and just have a conversation that's about how you are.

experiencing the work and do you need anything from me? I also think establishing this rapport and this cadence will help you understand what's bothering them before it becomes a performance or a behavioral issue that someone outside of the team brings to your awareness. And you can use these relatively safe spaces to maybe ask about some minor shifts that you're happening before they become big ones.

Mary (31:30.886)
Right, so one example I'm having is someone who is usually chatty and playful, who all of a sudden is very serious and quiet. Maybe they're starting to go off camera a lot. This was kind of an interesting thing in the COVID times. And even now for those of you who are, work from home or hybrid, the decision to be on camera or not sometimes has a lot of meaning around it. And sometimes people are perceived as antisocial if they don't wanna be on camera.

Katie (31:50.646)
Yeah.

Mary (31:56.262)
But sometimes people will just be like, hey, you know, the baby was up, the dog was barking, I didn't get a chance to do my hair. It's really interesting how video has played themselves out here as kind of revealing some moods and what people are going through. But having these little spaces to talk about things is a great time to bring up observations in a compassionate and non-confrontational way. And then finally, I'm a big fan of taking notes for one-on-ones.

and sharing them with the direct. It's very, very busy. Sometimes I may have a perception that I'm being very clear or they're having a perception that they're very clear. And having something written as sort of a shared understanding has helped me make sure that everybody's on the same page before there's any miscommunications or misunderstandings. And by the way, it also makes doing reviews super efficient.

Katie (32:54.058)
Well, so...

As you're talking about this, I'm thinking about how much energy doing a good one-on-one takes and why it is easy for them to slip. When you were talking about your previous meeting running over, when you know, when you're talking, and even, even the fact that preparation for your one-on-ones with your staff.

takes work and then having the conversation where you can be fully present and constructive while you are also incredibly busy and day to day tactical stuff is a very real challenge and I think we need to give ourselves a break when we're not good at it. So there's I think this goes this goes both ways. Sometimes you know I what? Go ahead.

Mary (33:46.131)
Yes.

Well, and not, oh, sorry. But you say that to your employee too, right? Like, I mean, that's a very human thing. Like if you're late, like I've said, you know, someone I know is waiting for me. I hate when I keep people waiting, you know, like talk about that. Like, listen, I'm really disorganized. I'm running late. I'm really sorry. Like I think what you're saying, Katie, is important. And I don't know if I'm, stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but.

give yourself a break, but also maybe share that too with the employees so that they know where you're coming from. I think it's kind of a humanizing expression.

Katie (34:25.086)
Yeah, when I look at my calendar and I see one-on-ones, I am just sort of energetically budgeting my day. I'm like, oof. It's so.

Mary (34:39.474)
When do you have those calls, by the way? I'm curious. When do you schedule your one-on-ones? I'll tell you mine.

Katie (34:44.066)
So I have, usually, usually I put them in, like I tuck them in places that work. So, you know, functional things where they fit between existing commitments, existing standing meetings and things so that, you know, so the timing of them, I don't usually do any on a Monday and I don't usually do any on a Friday. I'm just trying to think.

But I do, when I look at my one-on-ones, I think this, it's just, I know it's going, it's just an energetically demanding thing to do well. So full disclosure there. But yeah. What's your answer? When do you do yours?

Mary (35:35.43)
late in the day. So I am very, I get really intensely into things. And I, you and I have talked about like the energy and the pace and the beginning of my day and the early afternoon, I'm just running, running. And that's when I have observed that I haven't been, it maybe not present is the right way of saying it, but I'm still like processing, I'm still in like strategic or processing mode and I'm not bringing my heart.

Katie (35:49.396)
Yeah.

Mary (36:05.174)
and my humanity to the conversation. And I'm aware of it and I'm, and I hate doing it and it bothers me. So I'm like, all right, you know what? That intensity usually peaks, I carry it after lunchtime. And so I like try to structure my day. So all that heavy stuff is at the beginning of the day. And then I'm starting to like, ooh, get a little tired, a little crispy or whatever. And then I'm like, okay, then I can kind of relax. And then I'm shifting gears for myself for the whole day. And so I kind of compartmentalize.

those different aspects of work for me with people. And I agree on the Friday thing. I don't do Monday. And I was trying for a while to do no meeting Fridays, which I definitely recommend. We should talk about that on another episode.

Katie (36:38.719)
I think that...

Katie (36:48.542)
Yeah, I also should confess that I tell folks that their one-on-one time is their time. And if they do not want to have the one-on-one that they can always opt out of it.

Mary (37:06.214)
Very cool, yeah. Yeah, thank you, yeah. Yeah, cause it becomes this theater otherwise, right? You're like, I'm doing this for you. So come on the call with me. It's just like, that's a really good point. I could use the time back.

Katie (37:10.076)
Yeah.

They rarely do.

Katie (37:23.634)
Yeah. I mean, I, oh, and when someone and, and they rarely decline and when they do, I'm like, Ooh, when, when they, when they're, they say, yeah, you know, I, this week can, can we skip it? I always feel like that's just a, it's a freebie. Yeah. I kind of, I can't help, but just totally love it. Yeah. Full, full reveal of my.

Mary (37:30.287)
Right.

Mary (37:44.53)
That's the best.

Katie (37:53.35)
relationship with one-on-ones and I think that the more, so the more energy you give them the more value there is in them because I've certainly had bosses who put nothing into them and they sit down with you and it's just like it's such a waste of time and it's better not to do it.

Mary (38:16.386)
Yeah, it's better not to do it, right? Like that's just, just don't even, don't do it.

Katie (38:23.402)
worse than just let's spend some social time together because it's this drag where you're just sitting there in this conversation that's just like painful.

Mary (38:33.978)
And you don't even know what it is. I've had people, you never knew who was gonna show up. It could be the kind person, I wanna know about you. And then maybe it's like, how's this project going? And then it's like, then it's a self-disclosure. You were just sort of, everyone's just sort of waiting for what the ride was gonna be today. And yeah, I don't think people need more energy drains or drama or just theatrical meetings. I think everyone would appreciate.

Katie (38:42.574)
This is so hard. Yeah.

Mary (39:04.059)
Less of that

Katie (39:05.73)
Yeah, I've had, I guess, I guess I've had a lot of, I'm just trying to really measure what I'm going to say here. Another, so this is going to get cut. But another thing is I have had bosses who are the CEO and have absolutely nothing.

to contribute to what I'm doing and don't understand anything about what I'm doing. And their desire to be part of the result and the magic that's happening in the sales organization creates this sort of like forcing aspect of them.

making you spend the time with them. And that has happened with me in more than one place. All right, and that will be cut. So, so to close in closing, I would encourage managers not to try to act like a licensed therapist. You know, some employees don't wanna talk about it with you and that's okay. You know, seeking guidance from HR.

you know, if you are concerned, finding out what resources are available, asking HR for a strategy with taking action. But remember, you can ask questions without disclosing your employee's name. I think this is an ongoing discussion and we want to hear from you, our listeners. So if you have questions, comments, or wanna share,

your own story or ideas with us, you can reach out to us. We're at Business Psychos podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and Business Psychos podcast at Gmail.

Mary (41:10.17)
Yes, if you found this useful, please like, subscribe, and share. Bye for now.

Katie (41:16.106)
Alright, well until next time when we mullet over our next topic, keep your business up front and your party in the back. Bye!

Katie (41:34.18)
and