The Kickoff Episode: Meet The Psychos

In the first episode of Business Psychos, hosts Katie Bickford and Mary Schaub discuss the intersection of personal and professional life. They reflect on their own journey of personal and professional growth over the past 15 years and the challenges they faced in reconciling their desires for fulfillment and success. They emphasize the privileges and opportunities that come with professional life, while also acknowledging the need for authenticity and the struggle to navigate the complexities of personal and professional identity. The hosts introduce the purpose of the podcast, which is to explore these topics and provide a space for open and honest conversations. They invite the audience to participate and share their own experiences and questions. Throughout the episode, they touch on themes such as shame, mental health in the workplace, and the importance of vulnerability and intimacy in relationships. In this conversation, Mary and Katie discuss various aspects of navigating the corporate world. They explore the differences between introverts and extroverts in social settings and the challenges of team-building activities. They also share their experiences with expense reporting and the importance of integrity. The conversation delves into power dynamics, judgment, and the impact of quiet quitting and mediocrity in organizations. They discuss the game of corporate politics and the need for emotional intelligence. The conversation concludes with a reminder to understand the political and social games within organizations and to find a balance between personal and organizational goals.

• The intersection of personal and professional life is a complex and challenging space to navigate.
• Professional life offers privileges and opportunities for growth and fulfillment.
• Authenticity and vulnerability are crucial for personal and professional growth.
• The podcast aims to create a safe space for open and honest conversations about the challenges and opportunities of professional life. Understand and respect the different preferences and comfort levels of introverts and extroverts in social settings.
• Create meaningful team-building experiences that cater to the diverse needs and interests of team members.
• Maintain integrity in expense reporting and avoid unethical practices.
• Navigate power dynamics and judgment in the workplace by fostering open communication and building trust.
• Recognize the impact of quiet quitting and mediocrity on team performance and address underlying issues.
• Develop emotional intelligence to navigate corporate politics and build positive relationships.
• Be aware of the political and social games within organizations and find ways to optimize your situation.
• Balance personal and organizational goals to create a fulfilling and successful career in the corporate world.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Background
• 3:11 The Intersection of Personal and Professional Life
• 6:04 Creating a Safe Space for Authenticity
• 6:48 The Struggle to Reconcile Personal and Professional Paths
• 9:48 The Privileges and Opportunities of Professional Life
• 17:46 The Power of Vulnerability and Intimacy
• 22:14 Maximizing What You Want Without Shame
• 26:28 Different Preferences for Team Building Activities
• 34:00 The Importance of Integrity in Expense Reporting
• 36:00 Navigating Power Dynamics and Judgment in the Workplace
• 37:00 Building High Performing Teams in Low Performing Cultures
• 38:00 The Impact of Quiet Quitting and Mediocrity in Organizations
• 39:23 Negotiating the Game of Corporate Politics
• 40:00 Balancing Personal and Organizational Goals
• 42:00 The Importance of Emotional Intelligence in Corporate Spaces
• 43:00 Understanding the Political and Social Games in Organizations
• 45:00 Understanding the Political and Social Games in Organizations

Transcript

Mary Schaub (00:00.606)
And we're live. Welcome to Business Psychos. Katie Bickford, Mary Schaub. Here we are, we're doing it. This is it. This is our first episode. Right.

Katie (00:02.03)
And we're alive.

Katie (00:07.686)
We're doing it. Yeah, this is pretty wild. Oh my gosh, I'm like looking at all this stuff. It's pretty exciting to see it actually happening. I'm looking at like the little soundboard on this thing. We'll cut this part, but yeah, this is kind of amazing. But yeah, I mean, I think that even like for this is like just that we are like, it's nervy. It's exciting to finally, you know, like be talking and you know, in the mix of this. And you know, and I'll say that last night,

I gave some thought about how long ago we met and how cool it is that we're doing this, but yeah.

Mary Schaub (00:44.034)
We're on almost 15 years now, you and me, knowing each other.

Katie (00:49.074)
15 years and 15 years ago, we met at a meditation retreat where both of us were like, you know, I think I'm really done with my professional life.

Mary Schaub (01:00.534)
I was done with everything in my life, professional, personal. There was a relationship there somewhere. Everything was, it was a big, it's a transformation moment.

Katie (01:10.038)
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, when I think about it, I like, I don't know what I was thinking that was like the, the alternative of whatever, you know, cause I just built my first team and I was kind of like crawling on hands and knees, like, you know, sort of begging for mercy from the universe. And, and it was like that, that little respite of time that we spent together. And I think both of us were sort of like, Hey, maybe we can break out of this thing. Like maybe we can break out of this thing. And

Like in all fairness, I think the last 15 years, we could be qualified, we could call it as like doubling down actually on our professional lives, but no regrets, like no regrets.

Mary Schaub (01:49.45)
This is a bit, I had this conversation with a friend of mine. She's a very senior attorney, employment attorney yesterday and talking about how, hey, growing up, your perception of what your professional life was gonna be, for me, it was a big company that, name brand, 30, 40 years, you get a watch on your anniversary. There's this ascension through the ranks. I had this fantasy of what being a professional was and.

It's very hard to just drop out of the matrix when you've grown up and that this is what you're supposed to do. So I agree with you that we were doubling down, but really, I mean, this is kind of a big deal to start to re-examine your life's path and what you're gonna do and how to make money and be happy. And by the way, who you are, because I'm not that same person that you met 15 years ago.

Katie (02:43.106)
I hope not. I mean, my God, but like, I actually think one of the things is that part of that period of life, Ian, this goes into, I think what we're going to talk about, like why we're doing this is that, you know, like as far as the last, you know, 15 years and continuing to grow our professions and ultimately become executives and leaders is that, you know, the privileges and the opportunities that has

that has brought into my life to be able to experience all facets of myself, like not just professional, but like be able to examine the other parts that I've been curious about, like to be able to scale mountains in Nepal and scuba dive in the Great Barrier Reef in Australia and all this, and even like going to yoga school and be able to have time to do stuff, like the privilege that's opened up and that has so much to do, I think, with why we both feel

really passionate about representing professional life, not as this kind of duality where it's either this like incredibly terrible thing that's unjust, which is yes, true and justified, but also it's like a yes and it's also this incredible opportunity to break into like huge aspects of privilege and opportunity. So, you know, so I think that's where we're at. So yeah, so tell me a little bit about what this Business Psychos podcast is about, Mary.

Mary Schaub (04:10.602)
I think you just killed it with that explanation. I think this scene, this intersection that we're all struggling with, we were struggling with it 15 years ago, right? We're still there, which is this is who I am, this is what I do. These things are related, these things aren't. I don't know how to reconcile that. To your point, how do I afford to be me and do the things that I wanna do? It just seems like this impossible paradox to be authentic to...

survive and afford the life you want and yet remain true to yourself. And whether that's because I can't afford to go scuba diving because it's too expensive without that job that keeps me up at two in the morning or maybe it's something else. Maybe you want to be an artist. You want to be a creator. But like how do you do that when you've spent 30 years in a career that you're pretty locked into? How do you make that jump?

And then I think there's something about just being alive right now. I think there's this broader, you and I talked a little bit about that, our feeling that there's like a broader transformation happening out there. Like we can all kind of feel it. Maybe some of that started with COVID. Um, I'm, I'm really psyched that there's more open conversations like the ones we're going to have today and that you and I have privately. Um, I think people want to explore some of these things and haven't had spaces to do so in a, in a, in a way. Um.

where they can show up authentically without any kind of retribution. I think we'll talk a little bit about what that means as far as being yourself in the workplace. You're hearing a lot on LinkedIn like, oh, show up, be empathetic, be authentic. And it's like, well, okay, well, this is work. So is that right? Like, I think there's a lot of confusing messages out there. I think for folks like you and I who have been leaders, like there's a reality to it, right? You can't really just say anything you want to your team. That's not what leadership is about.

really what authenticity is about. But how do you reconcile all of these paradoxical and somewhat contradictory viewpoints and feelings? So that's what we're gonna try to do on the podcast. We've got some really cool topics coming up and we've been getting some informal feedback from our networks. This is our first episode, which is really exciting, but I think we want our audience to be a part of the show, right, Katie? We want like your comments, your feedback. Like if you want us to talk about something, we wanna hear it.

Katie (06:29.209)
Amen.

Mary Schaub (06:34.09)
We are already getting that kind of feedback, which is really, really exciting. What are you hearing from your network just when you told people that you're gonna be starting this podcast?

Katie (06:44.098)
You know, so first of all, I want to say that what you've just talked about, I think is incredibly relatable, the reconciliation of how do I transition if I'm to move out of working in a corporate environment and transition into a life that is more in alignment with who I am. And that is not putting like a deep strain on myself. And how you articulated that, I think is...

is incredibly like, like meaningful to just listen to you talk about that. And so to your, to your question about what is the feedback. So this has been in my kind of private conversations type of stuff I talk about all the time. I have never spoken as openly in a public forum. I mean, like honestly.

We have had these conversations. The point of this podcast to your point of like involving other people is that it's like, yeah, we have these conversations already. So we're bringing like y'all into this. And as, as a byproduct of doing that, we want to hear from, from y'all, like anyone who's listening, um, and we want to like build community and a sense of, um, just basically like reception and hearing what people have to say.

But, you know, like one thing I would say is that feedback has been unilaterally across the board. And I'm talking about people who are, you know, like personal trainers to like celebrities, to executives, to, you know, in very conventional companies, you know, like men, women, you know, different ages, is the response across the board has been.

like this kind of like sigh of like, oh my God, I can't wait to listen to this. Like this, this is the conversation that I want to be having. And one of the things that it's, it's kind of brought to memory was for a period of time, I worked in a program that was like for career transition. And, you know, and so I was the, you know, I ran admissions.

Katie (08:55.618)
and I would do calls with people. And sometimes I'd be doing as many as like 14, 30 minute quick calls with people. And I had to figure out how to really nail this really key discussion with people. And so I'd be having one after another, and these would be people who'd done everything right, it was like the right college, like applied themselves, like had everything that they were promised was gonna make them supremely like settled and happy, which...

likely had been the case for those who came before them and advised them as far as like how to build their lives, but that they were like, it was like this deep secret that is like, this isn't working for me in this way that I don't even know how to articulate. And it feels really ungrateful to be complaining or even ungrateful to be turning my back on all of the resources that were, you know, poured into me by way of education.

and opportunities and network opening up doors for me. And I'm sitting in this like privileged position that, you know, like, you know, the majority of people would, you know, be like dying to have, and I'm feeling empty, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling like there's, you know, something missing, I'm not connected to purpose. And even in some cases, just like feeling depressed and anxious. So those conversations, this is kind of like a long, you know, like sort of a long explanation.

But those conversations I remember is very common for people to tell me it was, it felt like one of the most intimate conversations they'd ever had because it was so forbidden to discuss that, you know, they kind of won the lottery and it wasn't, it like hadn't cracked the code on their sense of fulfillment and happiness. And to admit that and to start talking about like, what else could I do was like a huge opening. So.

Mary Schaub (10:46.094)
That's such a great example and I can see knowing you as I do, I can see why you're also there was a lot of you in that, right? Because you're super present, easy to talk to, you invite vulnerability, right? I feel that way about you. But I think what you're calling out too is this conundrum that we're in, which is that person you're talking to, they can't go to their current boss and have that conversation, right? Because as soon as you go to your boss and you're like, I'm really not happy.

you know what's gonna happen. You know next time there's a round of layoffs or there's a promotion, you're like, well, Bob's not really in it. He's already kind of checking out. So you can't have that open, honest conversation with people at work. You're not gonna have it with your peer that you might be competing with for a role. You're not gonna have it with your subordinates. And then do you really wanna have that with your partner? And then the partner's like, what's going on? So who, where does that got?

Katie (11:15.324)
Yeah.

Katie (11:34.194)
That's it. 100%.

Mary Schaub (11:37.738)
Where does Bob go in this? I'm just gonna use these generic names, right? Like, so where does that person go where they could be understood? And maybe in their personal life, they've got a good friend. Their friend's not really in that industry. Maybe the friend's like, to your point, Katie, hey, why would you walk away from that? You'd be crazy. And so like, where does that person get that kind of caring and compassionate, but also...

Katie (11:40.978)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (12:02.962)
you know, educated kind of view about the trade-offs because there is a reality to this. Like, this is not, I don't, I mean, I think you'd agree, Katie, this is not like, everybody quit tomorrow and just go off and find your dreams, right? Like, we're not saying that. This is not like a, you're ungrateful, just keep grinding. I think what we're trying to do here is just explore this really complex intersection of a personal life and a professional career and.

what drives you and how to reconcile that and how to kind of come out the other end with your humanity and happy for your life. But there's no quick answer to any of this. And there is a little bit of a game to negotiating and navigating this tricky slope.

Katie (12:48.186)
Yeah, that's a fact. And I think that even back then, and, you know, talking back to when we met.

I had a naivete which was that, you know, there was this option where you just literally like shed this, you know, this like earthly, you know, existence and you sort of like walk into this, you know, sort of ethereal place. And the fact of the matter is, is that there, you know, people have responsibilities. Like people are raising children, people are partners in, you know, in financial commitments and obligations.

And so, and that, you know, I think, I think the thing of, you know, feeling, you know, to your points, like, are you going to bring this up to your partner that you're unhappy at your job and how hard that is to like, and how that can actually like impact.

the sense of stability in the relationship because now the partner is starting to worry about what that means for them and what they have to hold up. And then it's like, okay, well, how do they feel about their situation? And now is there no room for that? So it is very complex, this discussion. And the space that I think we intend to create here is one where we're talking about this kind of dichotomy of the fact that it's like, we've got this huge opportunity

to be able to make money, to have opportunities that are above and beyond just the financial ones of our own transformation, to be able to impact other people as leaders and to learn things about ourselves, even the benefit of being in difficult situations and learning things as a result of that. About how to

Katie (14:32.774)
regulate yourself, how to optimize things, how to become better at all sorts of things. Like that, you know, so it's to take that and like that we spend time being really constructive about like riding that edge, which is like, okay, this is an opportunity. It's also like has a lot of challenge in it. And so if we are in under the wheel, like sort of trapped under the wheel getting run over all the time, it's like the trade is not fair. Like it's a-

crap trade. And but if we are actually now consciously making trades where we're saying this is in the service of something that matters to me, this so you know, so instead of it being you know, like this thing where it's like, wow, this just is absolutely running my life. And it's like a runaway train versus being like, I'm in the train, you know, I'm driving it.

It's kind of going fast, but like just the thing about like that, that it's like making decisions to make conscious trades for this stuff, to stay aware. And if, you know, working in a corporate environment and I, and we'll talk more about this because I'm certainly on the, you know, in, in the, like now I've transitioned to a very like non-traditional type of, you know, life is that it's like doing that in the service of a longer term outcome.

You know, because one of the things that happens is that you're in a professional, um, you know, in your career. And for me, one of the things that I got in this treadmill of like lifestyle, where it was like, you know, like the masseuse that comes to my house, two hours a day, uh, you know, two hours a week, you know, like, you know, the decorator, the dog walker, the personal trainer, the, you know, like all of the.

Mary Schaub (16:18.294)
the golden handcuffs.

Katie (16:19.862)
Yeah. And it's like, and adding those things on to try to create a sense of comfort and sustainability, you know, it like really acknowledging it's like I'm spending like this because I'm actually trying to comfort myself. I'm doing, you know, my, I'm doing all this stuff because I'm actually trying to like

reward myself for the fact that I'm as like unfulfilled, unhappy, stressed and strained as I am. And then the thing that happens is like, you know, I experienced like my energy would be so low. The only thing that was sort of like giving me life were these little, you know, like all these services and delights and lifestyle things. So it was like it became this like really confusing thing, which is like, how do I get on this tread off this treadmill? Because the only thing that's keeping me happy is the lifestyle that this job gives me.

vert, you know, so it's like, so it starts to like really speed up and you feel kind of trapped on it. And, and I will say that, um, you know, when that stimulation gets removed and the, you know, the overstimulation that life, you know, that life actually, you know, like simple things kind of wind up like being more satisfying. So even, you know, even my standards and the things that I used to like really feel like I needed, I just do not need anymore. And

But that transition is not something I would just say, you can immediately cognitively understand it and then enact it. So the conversations that I think we aspire to have in here are really about these types of these more nuanced complex realities and navigating them in a way where we can actually do something about them versus just being like.

you know, either like, this is actually great and I'm not being grateful or this is really terrible and I should blow everything up. And it's like, no, there's a middle road here. And that, you know, it's like, how do you walk it to create the best life for yourself, your family, and the people that you care about and your cats. That's life for your cats. The cat standard of living has not gone down. The cats. Yeah. The cat standard of living is literally probably increased.

Mary Schaub (18:16.426)
Yes, and the cats, they'll be making a regular appearance. No, there is a floor to that. You can't be messing around with the cat standard of living.

Mary Schaub (18:28.166)
and dogs, we're supportive of dogs and all pets here. And I would add just one thing, and that is like, I do think COVID was a little bit of a collective experiment on what you're saying, right? We weren't going out, we weren't going to fancy restaurants, we weren't going on vacation. There was this moment where everyone was like, huh, you know, my dry cleaning bill is down, I'm not spending all this money, I'm not going out, I'm not buying all, and yet like,

Katie (18:28.246)
But that's...

All bets.

Mary Schaub (18:56.874)
I can survive without that. I think it was just this little pause for people who hadn't started to think about some of these things. I do think that that's how the work from home controversies, the quiet quitting, the people contemplating, maybe I'll just do some gig work. I think it just was this moment of, huh, wait a minute, do I have to do all those things? And actually, I'm not buying a lot of clothes, I'm not going out, but I'm actually pretty happy. I mean, I do think there were tons of

mental health trade-offs to all that. So I'm not saying that was where we should go. I just think that you don't know what you don't know. And I think that experience made us all pause and taste a little bit of when we take those golden handcuffs off or we stop appeasing ourselves with all those little gifts and all those little kind of trinkets. And then you just go, well, yeah, I'm not on that, doing that three hour commute anymore. I'm not like dealing with all these types of things. I'm just looking at this as like a job and.

whatever. So I think there's, I think that this is, there's so many interesting things happening right now that everyone is talking about these types of things more, more than ever before. I think you and I always have been a little bit in our heads and love, love talking about this stuff. Um, why don't we take a break and we'll come back in 10.

Mary Schaub (20:17.87)
One second, I need to get my ball like.

Katie (20:28.966)
Your ball.

Mary Schaub (20:32.654)
It's like a yoga ball in my background, like in the middle of the shot. It's just like rolling by itself. That was good.

Katie (20:37.714)
How about those Tiffany balls? Yeah, I think what's kind of-

Mary Schaub (20:40.802)
That was good. I could have cut it earlier, but you were doing so, like we were just flowing. It was like, we're gonna do it.

Katie (20:47.898)
Yeah, I think one of the things that's interesting.

to me too about that is that it's like, we're kind of covering everything we intended to. What I do wanna do in the next blip is I wanna pass the mic to you about why, like you, your why in this to like really give you kind of like some space to really kind of like express your origin story in the creation of this pod. And maybe a lead in being like talking about like reaching out to you. And it's kind of the fact that you are immediately

you're like, yes. And, you know, and so, you know, so there's that.

Mary Schaub (21:24.266)
Okay, so you're gonna tee up like, so you're gonna start with the next segment. You'll be like, you'll be talking, you're gonna be like, hey, I asked you and you said yes, and then I'll talk about why I like doing this stuff. Okay.

Katie (21:28.686)
Yeah, I'll start with the next segment.

Katie (21:37.213)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (21:42.358)
Ready?

Katie (21:43.386)
I'm ready.

and we're back. So Mary, a couple of weeks ago, uh, someone had sent me a podcast they were working on and it had sparked this inspiration for me. And I immediately thought of you.

and immediately thought of this topic and what we tend to talk about as friends. And much to my delight, the, you know, I said, let's do a podcast and he responded with an immediate yes, which is like kind of the greatest thing. And I just, I want to know a little bit about like what, tell me about that. Yes. Tell me, tell me a little bit about what, you know, what came to mind and what your

as we've been working on the project.

Mary Schaub (22:31.438)
I mean, the first thing is you. I almost felt like we've always, like, you know, when something's on the tip of your tongue, I've always felt like this was between us somewhere. I don't know if that was me projecting my wish that it was on there, but, you know, like I said, 15 years, we've been kind of like in and out, we've both been doing things, we've been living all over the world, and yet I have always felt like our friendship was really close no matter where we were, like we could pick up immediately.

Katie (22:44.802)
No, I feel the same way.

Mary Schaub (23:00.598)
The other thing that struck me is funny, which is like, you know how you have friends where like they know everything that's going on, like, oh, you had the house, the siding on the house redone, and then the kids are going to applying to this college. And then like you and I know each other like soul knowledge, you know what I mean? And then you would tell me something like, oh, I lived in Bali for, I'm like, oh, I didn't know that one piece of, I didn't know all of that kind of chronological knowledge about you. But immediately when we get together, we just.

Katie (23:17.627)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (23:28.918)
get into this space where we get very deep and we talk. So I think the first yes, Katie, is just because it's you and because there's something that's very special talking to you, with you. I always walk away feeling inspired. I'm really big on interpersonal energy. When you walk away from an interaction with someone, do you feel tired or do you feel elated or do you feel inspired? I like people who are super smart that are gonna keep me.

wanting to read and learn and grow because I want to bring that to the relationship. And so I've always really valued our relationship. And I also know that like we get on the phone or like video call and it's like three hours later, I'm like, oh, it's dark out, what's going on? And then we started to hang out with other people. We have shared friends now. And then we've had these like experiences where everyone's like, wow, that was like an intense experience. And I think I wanted to share that, like you said earlier with others.

Talking about stuff, I love to talk about stuff. I do have a tendency with my own self-work is knowing I can intellectualize. So I'm like being more aware of that. But what I love about our conversations is that it's not just heady, it actually gets into the heart a little bit. And I think that's where we really need to be. I think that's where real change happens. Otherwise it's like kind of theater. But I do find that talking is like for me, the road to intimacy.

Katie (24:45.212)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (24:57.002)
Um, I, with the friends that I'm closest with are the friends that I can do this with. Like there's something about sitting down and listening to someone else's experiences and points of view and, you know, how they're navigating their existence and, and their perception of life just feels extremely intimate to me. So, um, I, I think it goes back to, you know, my earliest relationship with my father, who was a complicated guy, a very traditional blue collar guy, did not talk about feelings.

certainly would never consider therapy, self-work, self-help books, that was not at all in scope with my dad. But every Saturday we would sit down, probably from somewhere around 13 till I was in my late 20s. And I'd go, either I was living there, I would go to the house on a Saturday, do laundry, because I lived in an apartment without any laundry. And we'd sit at the kitchen table, have a cup of coffee, and we'd talk, right? An hour, two hours.

And it would range from like town gossip and what's going on with this family member or not. But then it would get into like some philosophy and psychology and just life. And I don't know why there was this protected moment of us sitting at that kitchen table where he was more accessible to me. And I was just like drinking it up. I was like, I was, I remember I would feed him different topics to try to get it to last. Cause he also had like this little.

He had this like the sands to the hourglass. It would start to, I would know when I was losing him, he would have enough for a day. And I'd be like, you know, what do you think about space exploration, dad? Should we continue to invest in space? And it's like, you know, like I knew that would get him going. And I guess I just, I wanted that connection with him. And I felt like talking was a way to it. And so maybe that's one of my formative experiences, which made me seek intimacy with other people through sitting down and sharing experiences because.

Not everyone's gonna sit down and go super deep. And you and I, we talked, we met in a yoga retreat. And so we can play in that deep end and space. Not everybody can, and that's okay. Doesn't mean that they don't have these thoughts and feelings. And so what I love about the podcast idea when you came to me about it, which is like, hey, we can create this space where we can actually do this and reach people. And then I guess this is gonna sound a little bit naive and maybe.

Mary Schaub (27:19.73)
um, you know, not, not genuine, but it truly is, which is I've always wanted to, to help people. Like I've always wanted to be on this earth and feel like I've left it a tiny bit better than I, you know, than when I came. Um, my career has not been in a helping profession. I haven't been a physician or a social worker. And so I am at that point in my life where I'm reflecting on like, Hey, you know, how can I maybe.

help people knowing that I've been in a corporate space that's not really a helping profession and knowing that people are talking about mental health, for example, in the workplace. Like it feels like finally there's a convergence between these two very disparate sides of my life, which is, you know, helping people and dealing with complex things, but also in this corporate space. And so it felt like there was something really special here and to do it with a friend.

that I've actually experienced these things with firsthand versus it just being like an on the paper exercise. It just felt right. So I'm so excited. I'm so grateful to be able to do this. And I know that we're going to learn a whole lot. That's the other thing is like, this is not like I'm standing from some like mountain of like knowledge. Like, like I expect that we're going to learn so much by being able to do this. I'm going to learn from you, Katie. I think we're going to learn from our from our audience.

And that's what I want too. I want to keep pressing myself to figure things out.

Katie (28:53.342)
I love that so much. And so one thing I want to say is that you're like, I know a lot of really amazing professionals and I have a lot of incredible people in my life and this project can only be you. And it is actually an interesting thing because normally I'm like contingency woman, which is like, well, if it doesn't work out with this person, if it doesn't do it like,

you know, which has its, you know, strengths and weaknesses, in terms of like character, but

There's something, it's funny because like one of the things with this, it's like there's this like kind of vulnerability of love that I have with this, which I haven't experienced in a while, which is this thing where sometimes, you know, like the, you know, the like off sort of camera aspect of this is like, it's like we're figuring all this stuff out. And sometimes it's like, okay, you know, how are we going to work this out?

And I have this vulnerability of being like, what if Mary decides that she doesn't want to do this? That's very similar to like, like feelings I've had in love relationships where I'm like, please, you know, I'm like, oh, like I really like there's, there isn't an alternative. There isn't an alternative. It's like, you know, and so, so there's that. So I just want to express like how much it, how much.

Mary Schaub (30:13.474)
That's so kind. That is, they're very generous.

Katie (30:16.87)
Well, it's just true. It's just true. It's not even like, it's not even intended to charm. It's just, it's actually like an admission.

Mary Schaub (30:22.758)
We are gonna let the love fly. Everybody should know is that like, we have this professional corporate thing and then there's this like the real, and this is the dichotomy that we're talking about, right? So you guys are gonna all see this, like we're gonna go from, yeah, corporate, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden it's gonna be like, oh my God, like, you know, our true, I feel like I can be so, when I hear you saying what I feel with you is I can really bring my full self, that vulnerable self, you know, the scars, the insecurities.

Katie (30:40.336)
Yeah!

Mary Schaub (30:53.126)
and be seen and accepted. And it doesn't mean that it's always like a love fest. We don't agree on every single thing, which will be fun for the podcast, but it is really, there's nothing like it when you can be with someone and be yourself and feel seen and accepted. And I don't think everyone realizes how rare that is until you start to have a friend, like you're my friend, Katie. I don't think until you start to have someone that you realize,

Katie (31:01.359)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (31:21.602)
how different of a relationship it is.

Katie (31:24.762)
Yeah. And I hope that people who, the folks who listen to our podcast get to, you know, we really bring in the audience of people that are like ourselves that want to be having these conversations, you know? And, and as you were, you know, as you were talking, one of the things that I was reminded of my friend, Georgia, in Australia, who's, or who lives in, in Melbourne, we hike the Annapurna circuit in Nepal together, which was, you know, with, with a group, but like we did it and it's like about a month that we spent together.

And at the end she wrote me a card that is still like a treasured possession which you know because you spend all that time walking with somebody for you know, just talking and She I forget exactly the words, but she said, you know, you're the perfect mixture of like really deep heartfelt conversations and dick jokes and I was like Yes, I've been I have been seen I have been seen

Mary Schaub (32:20.226)
There.

Katie (32:22.986)
And, you know, and another part of this is that like both of us, you know, I like, you know, like I think it's really, for me, it's really important to be unapologetic about really loving money. Like I like making money. And so, you know, it's not an end all be all for me, but like I recognize it without shame.

As being something that opens up opportunities to be generous to give more to people to live more fully To be able to make more of an impact and just even enjoy my own life more, you know And that is something if you know me Anybody who knows me knows that I'm like totally the person to come to if you want to talk This stuff openly because I think it's an important conversation for people to have is really verboten And so I think for what we're doing part of what we want to be doing is like encouraging

ourselves and others to be maximizing that without shame, like wanting what you want without shame and really like, you know, and, and just, you know, like, yeah, actually I don't have anything more to say. Just wanting what you want without shame.

Mary Schaub (33:29.57)
Well, you just teed up some of our, so just as a little teaser, so some of the things we're gonna be talking about, we are gonna be talking about shame in an upcoming episode. It's, I think it's one of the most powerful, under discussed emotions. I'm also a big fan of TV and movies, so I'm gonna be making like references, but I'm a big fan of the show Big Mouth. Nick Kroll's like brilliant cartoon and he actually personified shame. It's like, if.

Katie (33:32.828)
Yeah.

Katie (33:45.758)
especially in professional life.

Mary Schaub (33:58.37)
For those of you who don't know, it's like this cartoon. It's a little edgy, kind of like South Parky kind of cartoon about kids growing up. They think they're in middle school when it starts and going through all of the puberty and all the emotions that come with it. And they have a hormone monster, which would be what you would expect it to be. But then he personified shame. And I was like, that's brilliant. No one talks about.

that voice in your head that is just grinding you down all the time and we all think we're the only ones that have it, we think, oh, it's just like our dirty secret. We all have this voice in our head and it's very powerful, very, very powerful. So we're gonna be talking about that, again, at this intersection of being a human being, having growth goals, but also maybe holding a leadership position in a corporation and what does that mean when you're dealing with this or you have a team of people.

who have shame and they're not aware of it and it's kind of coming out in team dynamics. We're also gonna be talking about mental health in the workplace. I think this is our next episode. It's gonna be, I think this is gonna be a multi-episode topic, to be honest. Everyone is talking about some real concerns about how people are suffering, certainly all around the world, but here in the US. And you can't avoid that at work. I've had some personal experiences with it. I know you have, Katie. Some folks in my network have.

have reached out with some examples they'd like us to share and get the conversation going about how we can take care of each other as best as we can and get through this and how do you manage your own mental health in a stressful role and that of your team. And we're gonna talk about self-growth and what comes with growth and do you have to grow? Can I just?

Am I done? Can I just like kind of live out the rest of my life and watch movies? So I think we have a lot of like really exciting topics. One recurring segment that we're going to have on our show is a where we take questions or we read comments and antidotes from our audience. I've already gotten some of those. I know you've, you've gotten some Katie. So we're going to make some space for every episode to give some of that feedback. So one example that we've gotten, and this is not a question, it's just sort of this absurd.

Mary Schaub (36:16.806)
antidote is from an executive who works in the utilities industry. I'll leave it there. The company wanted to have an employee appreciation day and told all of the executives that they would require their teams to come in on a certain day. Everyone would have to work in the office that day so that they could be appreciated and go through the lunches and the speeches and everything.

this person I know was saying how she knew that her team would want nothing other than just to stay at home or to have the day off or do anything else than be mandated to stay in the office and to be appreciated. And it was really difficult for her to kind of like give this information to her leaders, winking all the time like, yes, I know this is absurd, but tell everybody that they have to come in because we need to appreciate them. So these are the kinds of, you know.

real life examples that are out there that we're all dealing with, which is like, hey, people don't want that. That's not what they want. It's not what the leaders want. Nobody wants it, but we're all going to go through and play this little game together. And then at the end of the day, we're going to feel like we did our jobs. Meanwhile, everyone's pretty miserable.

Katie (37:33.062)
Well, and it's now become almost like a meme about, you know, you're giving me a pizza party when I actually just want a raise, right? Like that that's become a thing where people are starting to be more vocal, especially Gen Z and sort of like the, I guess younger millennials, if that's directionally correct, talking really freely about like what this trade represents.

that it's like you're getting my work time in exchange for income and that like sort of the, you know, at least for our generation, the, this, this kind of thing where it's like you just give everything you got. And they're like, wait, what? Because they were raised by people doing this and they're, and they just got to see it from the outside looking in and just be like, whoa, what, how much are you giving up of your life?

And so, you know, I think that part of the, like, you know, sort of lunacy that people like report back on are all these like crazy anecdotes about things that are being presented as being like benefits and appreciations that are just actually considered now to be kind of just insulting, you know, it's like, yeah.

Mary Schaub (38:46.258)
We didn't talk about this, right? When I was coming up and I had the same thing, I had the pizza party at a corporate I was starting and it was like, you know, I'm somewhat of an introvert. I'm not really, that's not my scene. That's not where I thrive. And you're sort of in a conference room with the paper plate soaked with pizza grease and you're sitting there having to make conversation with people that you probably don't have a lot to say other than, you know, your day-to-day interactions. And it was...

Katie (39:01.411)
Oh yeah.

Mary Schaub (39:15.786)
I hated it, but I don't even think I was aware, like to your point earlier about what, you should be grateful. You have this job, it pays you. And look, they bought you pizza, like shut up. So now the fact that someone that same age that I was then is like not even gonna buy into that from the gecko of their career, right? Like they're not even gonna.

Katie (39:36.198)
Well, you know, the thing is though, and as a counter to that is like for most of my career, I've been the, like this just occurred to me right now is that I'm the person who built the team. So I'm the person who oversees everyone and I don't have an itch for any of that stuff. Like I have, you know, like for the...

Mary Schaub (39:54.434)
Really? I would think you're, because you're so social and outgoing and extroverted, I would think you'd be, because what's happening is that you assume everyone else likes that, right? You're like, hey, this is great, and they don't.

Katie (40:06.982)
I was really bad with that stuff. Like the things I like gimmicky stuff that was funny. Like, you know, there was this one time there was a stretch goal and I could see my team was flagging. And so I was like, listen, if you hit this goal I'm gonna throw you a pizza party and bring in a clown that makes balloon animals. And the thing was, is like, if anything, you can see my like my precocious mockery of the very notion of having a pizza party. And, and it was terrifying. I will say terrifying as a relatively young professional.

Mary Schaub (40:29.102)
I was gonna say, yeah, it's like ironic, you're right.

Katie (40:36.058)
because I was bringing like a, this like creepy clown into the office because they did it and they pushed themselves. They, you had people like from the West coast that were like, you know, like getting cheered on by people who stayed, you know, in the other offices, trying to keep them going, so we hit the goal. And, but you know, that, that kind of thing, like, that's the, that's like my gimmickiness, but you know, people who worked for me, like my lieutenants were always the people that were like, yeah, I think we kind of need to do something.

that sort of is a team, because I guess maybe the thing is the teams I've built have tended to like each other a lot. And at least that's how they presented to me. But that they would say, can we do something? Can we do an outing? And I'd be like, oh, because I wouldn't wanna go to it. And so that...

Mary Schaub (41:30.242)
Right.

Katie (41:32.59)
So there's like another side to it. There are people that kind of like that.

Mary Schaub (41:35.406)
There are, and that's not wrong. We're not shaming you. Hey, if you are someone who likes that team thing, like this is not like, everybody's got their thing. It's not my thing.

Katie (41:45.006)
Yeah, I'm not great. I'm not great. Yeah, I'm not great at that kind of stuff. Like, like if anything, it's like the stuff that I function around would be like, you know, I buy pizza to have everybody work till eight at night. Like it's shitty. Like, oh, like, I don't know for beep, but you know, like that's, that's kind of more the thing. And like the delight that I like to have in the professional world is, is like really tied to like getting something done.

versus like kind of this thing that I consider to be sort of like not constructive is like spending time just goofing off like over pizza. But, but, but I don't think that's right. I think there really are people and I do think it is meaningful for folks to spend time together and just kind of like connect. I'm not one of them.

Mary Schaub (42:25.142)
Yep, yep. But you gotta feel it out. It has to be a little more organic, right? If you have a group of friends, how would you, you know, how would you handle that with a group of friends? You'd probably consider, oh, like Mary's like this and Katie's like this. It's a little bit different than, you know, in a workplace where you're just smushing everyone together, all these different personalities and experiences. And, you know, the worst possible thing for me is if you were to tell me, and I've had this happen in my career,

we're gonna have a scavenger hunt and we're gonna break up into teams. It's in New York City and we're gonna break you up into eight teams and we've put, there's all these things all around the city and you guys all have to work together and run around the city and do the scavenger hunt. 100% I would just leave. Like I can't, it's just something I just physically can't do. Or you build a, we're gonna all have to, here's like.

you know, a pile of marshmallows and spoons and straws, and you have to make a bow and you have to make it go across it. Like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I think what one of the, I organized for my teams once, we had a really good year. It was before one of the downturns where everyone was burning super, super hot. Morale and retention were the main issues. Wasn't any kind of budget problem. So they were like, here's a load of money, like unlimited budget.

Katie (43:23.056)
Oh yeah

Mary Schaub (43:49.398)
do an offsite anywhere in the world, any kind of activities. And so what we ended up doing is two and a half days, but inviting everyone's partners. And then they could stay in that city. We happened to be in Dublin in this example. And we had one night that was a dinner with the team. And then the next night, and we had like some people say concierge, you can, you know, we'll help your partners go enjoy the city while you're in this offsite.

and then we're gonna invite them to the meeting. And everyone loved it. People brought their kids and it was really, really nice. And then instead of doing all of this like forced activity stuff, I said, spend the weekend in Dublin it on us. Here's some ideas, here's a massage place, falconry, golf, anything you want. And I remember one of the colleagues coming to me and just saying like, hey, what's the budget for this? And I was just like, just don't be silly. And he goes, I remember him going.

my wife loves massages and spas. Are you really sure you want me to tell her that? And I was like, hey man, look at the salon menu and how like their operating hours and see how many different services you can get in that opening time. And people loved it. And some people, by leaving it open, some people did decide, maybe people who were single, they went off and played golf together. Some people who were couples, they went off into some small families. Other people did their own thing. And everyone ended up gravitating in doing things that.

really they valued and I feel like they felt more appreciation from the company because we were like, hey, we want to do something for you, but we appreciate that this is very subjective and we want to invite you to make this something that you're going to actually walk away from this weekend feeling like you're relaxed and fun and not like kind of forced. I think it was the best example of any kind of team building we've ever done.

Katie (45:16.612)
Yeah.

Katie (45:40.218)
Well, listen, and as a little bit of a PsyOps of this is like, you get to watch how people's judgment plays out in being given free reign. You know, I mean, like that's... Well, but also, you know, also one of the things you learn, you know, as a leader is like who, you know, for me, one of the pillars is judgment. And

Mary Schaub (45:50.25)
got the massage in case you're wondering by myself.

Katie (46:02.686)
you know, and applying good judgment. And if anything, when it comes to like financial stuff being on kind of the, I tend to be more on the edge of being conservative and being creative in terms of figuring out like interesting ways to do things. Even if you have the money to do it. It's like, I think you just get better energy when you're like, you know, and like, yeah, into like making things work. But like, when you see those expense reports come through, you know, it's like being like who...

who did something absolutely ridiculous when given the like, and, you know, and one example, I think, cause the expense reports, you know, it's not that you like, you know, we'd like read all of them or whatever, but I just think of, yeah, I always think back to this early example I had where I'm looking at, and this was when I was a, you know, sort of a new leader, I'm looking at somebody who is in Boston kind of visiting her headquarters, who worked on my team in San Francisco, and I'm looking at their.

I don't know if I just, if I've disclosed anything, I'm looking at their expense report. Yeah, I'm looking at their expense report and like their receipt is different than the amount that they've asked for by like quite a bit. And I remember being asking them like, hey, let's just say it's like twice as much. Like they had expensed a thousand dollars, you know, like a thousand dollars in the expense. The receipt was for 500 and I'd asked them, I said, well,

Mary Schaub (47:02.275)
We can blur it out.

Katie (47:27.222)
you know, like this requires an explanation because they were actually in the office. And they said, well, you know, that's the actual retail price of the hotel room. And I got a deal. So that's how much the company would have paid if I hadn't gotten the deal. And I was like, that's not how it works. That is not how it works. But like the point of that to me is actually just like, when, you know, it's like about judgment.

Mary Schaub (47:46.07)
I know, like that's pretty...

Mary Schaub (47:54.495)
Oh yeah.

Katie (47:54.762)
like watching those little moves that people make. And it's kind of like, you know, when you like let, you're like, hey, take, you know, do whatever you want. And when somebody just like does something that's like off the rails, I'm totally taking this in a different direction then cause you're, you had a really nice story about people like being really like lovely. And I'm like, yeah, you know, and all the people. That's so.

Mary Schaub (48:10.199)
No, no, this is...

Mary Schaub (48:15.722)
No, no, this is it, right? It's both, these are all those things. And so I worked at a place where someone thought that they were really clever by, they're gonna book a lot of airfare, expense it, and then cancel all the airfare, and like no one would ever pick up on it. It's just like, hey, it's just fraud. It's like, right, this is just fraud.

Katie (48:20.454)
It's both and it's both them.

Katie (48:35.841)
Mm-hmm.

100% the fraud. Like it's like that. And it's just funny. It's just, yeah, don't do it. Don't do it.

Mary Schaub (48:42.786)
Don't do that guy. Like that's just, don't do it. This is, listen, you know, pass the, what is it, the mirror test, right? Like you could be, just, just operate with integrity. This kind of stuff is.

Katie (48:53.798)
Don't do it. But also you want like adding in another facet to this discussion is that if your organization, and this is one of the things where, you know, when people make like really gratuitous cuts, uh, you know, when organizations make big cuts and make people feel like they've been wronged, um, you know, one of the things that people do is they become very individually focused in terms of like looking out for themselves. Cause now they don't trust the organization.

Mary Schaub (49:20.846)
Yes.

Katie (49:20.93)
And by extension, they don't trust their leader or their team. So it's like, you get people lying about mileage, like try, like they're trying to recoup their dignity. So, so there's another part about people who kind of like, you know, kind of mess with expense reports, which is like a reclamation of something that feels like injust where they don't feel like they're in a position to be able to like, actually like stand up for themselves.

Mary Schaub (49:31.394)
Yes.

Mary Schaub (49:37.607)
Mm. Yep.

Mary Schaub (49:42.378)
Yep. I think this, what you're touching on right now, I think what you're touching on right now, it relates back to what you were saying before about being conscious about what you want. Because I think in this example, the person hasn't really brought forward all of these conflicts into consciousness. And there's this like underlying resentment where it's like, I'm gonna even this up, right? You're this giant company.

Katie (50:10.866)
100%.

Mary Schaub (50:12.274)
and you have all the power and I feel powerless and I'm resentful and this isn't really what I wanna do and I don't know where this is going. And so, hey, I'm gonna work, I'm working late one night in the office on the way through the supply closet, I'm gonna start loading up my book bag with supplies. And it's like, yeah, maybe to the company, they're never gonna feel at this giant company, but it's wrong in that, that's not how you solve that internal conflict.

I mean, it's wrong. And as a leader, I would say that that's stealing, right? That's that you're bringing those home. You can talk about home office stuff, right? But we know that that's not really cool, right? So, but how do you negotiate that?

Katie (50:52.186)
It's stealing. It's stealing. But I think there's also something as far as being a leader to, I think instead of like to me, like really dissecting the morality of that is looking at what the costs are when like we do things that undercut people as leaders. Like, and so it's to realize that it's like, you know, when, when

Mary Schaub (51:12.15)
Yes, 100%.

Katie (51:17.214)
you know, when you're in like a planning meeting or when you're trying to like navigate some kind of thing that has to do with like cutting back on something that's been promised already and there's an expectation or whatever. It's like my, my thought with that whenever that's coming up is like that's going to come, it's going to come out somewhere else. Like you're, you know, it's like that kind of thing about like that. And this is, you know, this is to me more something about the relationship.

Mary Schaub (51:33.88)
Yes.

Katie (51:42.202)
that you have of trust with your people in terms of them not having to feel like they have to keep watching their backs, that you're going to watch their back. What you say is going to wind up being true. And when there does is any change that you're actually stepping forward and saying that it's like, listen, I know this expectation was that I get that this is unfair and I really want to true this up. Like this is in like explaining things instead of just like, you know, sort of doing these

kind of like low-key, like kind of like sketchy things where everyone's sort of secretly creating the scuttlebutt where they're talking in the hallways and you know, like, you know, the whispers.

that as a leader, one of the things that you're actually putting that difficult extra effort and actually advocating for your people and when that doesn't work, because that does happen, you don't always get that to work out. They're having honest conversations about what's happening and you're really reconnecting with your folks about why you're committed to like...

truing this up ultimately. But there's times where that fails too, you know? There's times, and there's times where you as a leader feel like you're one of the people that got screwed. So it's like, so now you have this kind of weird thing where you're like, okay, I'm stumping for this organization that just did this to me and now it's doing it to my people. And so that's also a topic, which is like navigating that. Now you're saying.

Mary Schaub (52:55.403)
Yes.

Mary Schaub (53:06.238)
Now you're off selling it. Yeah, now you have to go sell it. Now you have to go there. And I mean, this is, you're just hitting on, like, we're gonna keep coming back to this, right? Like you're in this position where you're gonna wink, wink. You're gonna be like, listen, I know it is what it is. You have to kind of walk that line carefully because let's be honest, you know, you're very exposed as a leader and you need to represent the organization that you hold a leadership position in, but you need to maintain your integrity and the trust of your teams.

because otherwise they're gonna see you as some sort of puppet and you're gonna lose their respect. And frankly, you can get more out of them when you just have a quiet conversation and say, yes, I know this is what it is. Like, hey, why don't we do it this way? See how it goes. At least you have their respect and their trust. And I think that you'll get those folks to give you more than if you just act like the hard-ass boss. And I think you can still maintain your integrity with your leadership because you just can't.

throw them under the bus and throw the company under the bus. You lose control. There's a little bit of that. But yeah, I think, gosh, how many conversations I've had with people where I'm like, here's the inside face, here's the outside face, we're gonna do this together. I think quiet quitting is another example of the office supplies.

Katie (54:28.05)
percent.

Mary Schaub (54:29.246)
It's like, all right, yeah, we're gonna play this game and then I'm gonna do this passive aggressive thing where I'm gonna call in 50% of my effort and quality. I'm gonna do it just below the line so you really can't put your finger on it. Now you've brought the mediocrity into your organization and you've baseline it across your whole team. So now you're like, I don't even, because the high performers sitting there going, why should I bother? Like what is...

You know what I mean? So these team dynamics are so fascinating. And then, hey, like you said, Katie, then you're having the difficult conversation with your leadership and you have to go back out there, put on your face, and keep everybody together. That's tough.

Katie (54:55.578)
That's it.

Katie (55:09.354)
Yeah. And as like for, you know, as a, you know, as a leader, I built very high performing teams. Like I built teams that just would historically like either just absolutely like achieve very high goals or blow out high goals. And part of that is exactly this, what you're talking about with quiet quitting.

is that when you make the relationship like straight up transactional, people start really counting pennies. They start counting minutes, they start counting effort. And when there's joy and when there's excitement and there's collaboration and there's this thing that's like we're building this thing and my input is valued and I'm learning how to do something new and I'm part of a winning organization and doing this actually like feels like it kind of matters and it feels like kind of this thing and.

And yeah, and you know, and of course also the thing it's like, you know, just, you know, of course also the thing about like, we're gonna make some money here but there's more to it than that. And the thing is like for organizations that like start doing this thing where they're like, well, we're gonna cut back on this little thing. How much can it matter? It matters because all of a sudden it takes it like, it like cuts the halo off. Like it makes it all of a sudden it's like, oh, this is a transaction. You're giving me money for my time.

So now I can actually make a better deal. I can make a deal where I'm giving you less time and I'm getting the same amount of money. Whereas like in a high performing team where we're really building incredible things, it's like it's enhancing our lives in a way that we're like building trust, we're building collaboration, we're creating things that are inspirational and showing us what we're capable of in ways that are like, you know, that extend past just like this is a job.

And, you know, and that's kind of, that's the magic. And that's in so, so to the point of like, when people start stealing and becoming really insular and becoming very siloed and individual that I look at as being, you know, sometimes it's people you have the wrong people. Um, and they're either the individuals or they're the people that are running like larger aspects of the organization. So it's like, you know, so it's, it's really like that kind of like thinking for, you know, how do I sort of cut this into the

Katie (57:26.066)
you know, best individual deal I can get for myself. Like how that shows up is, you know, it takes away from being able to create and build incredible things. So even the practicality of, you know, kind of what we're talking about, which is like, if you have people who are stealing and, you know, or who are cutting corners or aren't giving as much, it's like, to instead of like this accusatory thing is to taking some level of accountability.

for trying to see like, what is it that is happening here that could possibly be contributing to this and meet that person halfway? Because if it's just a discussion where it's like you're stealing and I gotcha, it's like, then it's over. And now you have like the issue of having to fill a spot and like hire and onboard somebody versus like continuing to like build a relationship and possibly bring somebody back from having felt resentful to being feeling like they're part of actually like shaping.

uh, like the future of the organization and enacting change. But sometimes it's not possible because like we said, sometimes it, you know, but, you know, like above our position, it could be a board level issue where they want things to be run a certain way that you know, is not going to like get the, that's going to be really deleterious for the ultimate output of the organization. So, you know, it's like. Culture. Yeah.

Mary Schaub (58:40.11)
Well, in culture, right? Because I think what you're like, as you were talking about everything you were talking about in high performing, like some cultures are not high performing. And I've had, I've worked, I've been very lucky to work for some amazing high performing cultures. And I have built high performing teams and I consider myself a high performer, but they're all not, this doesn't all gotta happen together. And I have been a high performer in a low performing culture and.

Katie (58:48.542)
That's it.

Mary Schaub (59:07.958)
you know, all different variations of those options. And this goes back to what you were saying before about the game and being aware, right? Like if you are a high performer and you happen to find yourself in a culture that is not high performing, then you need to, you know, read the script, look around, understand where you are and how to excel in that environment because you may not excel in that environment. And if you are a leader and you're trying to build high performing teams,

but you're not gonna get the budget for the bonuses or you're not gonna get, you know, there's all these complexities. And again, you're in the middle of saying, this is how I operate my organizations. I wanna build this, but really this is misaligned with the broader organization, which means I'm gonna ask a lot of my people, I'm gonna have less control of giving them what they want because this is probably not a meritocratic compensation structure. And so maybe I have to find

Katie (01:00:01.999)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (01:00:04.366)
creative ways of giving back to them, whether that's my time, my mentorship, my helping them with advancement or whatever, but we all need to be conscious of what we can do and what we can't do and what the rules of this particular organization are. And we're gonna, and I think one of the last things that we can talk on here, Katie, about the kind of the tone or the vibe of this podcast is, this is not, we're not gonna be like,

damning big corporate, we're not gonna be like, you know, rallying for revolution. It's just so new, it's so complicated. It's just understanding what is, whether what, you know, where you are, what you want, what this organization, where this organization is and its journey, what it wants from you, and then how to negotiate and reconcile all of those things. This is not like...

I mean, there are some things that aren't great. We're gonna talk about that. We're gonna laugh like probably a lot more about it. There's some really absurd, crazy stuff, but this is not, yeah, this is not bringing down the man, right? This is like, hey, you need to know the game.

Katie (01:01:04.05)
There are a lot of things, yeah. Well, kind of it. Honestly, I'll say, so this is where we differ. I do think, I'm a bit more revolutionary, but I don't think the way to approach this and what we're talking about is about, like,

this notion that's just like, okay, I just quit and I like lose my access to capital, right? Like I lose my access to like the, you know, like whatever, like I think that one of the things that's important is really representing a middle road for folks that to like make the most and actually enact change in their organizations. But in order for people to do that, it's like supporting folks in being able to really like function.

and optimize their situations as best they can. I do think these cultures are, you know, by and large, they're really tuned towards mediocrity, you know, like in general. And even to the point of, you know, when you are high performing, there's even issues in terms of power struggles, of resentment of other people who aren't as talented as you are.

who maybe have more power. Like that's been an experience I've had, which has been having to like manage now this kind of thing where there's someone who in the organization who believes they're supposed to have the status that's like naturally being applied to me for just sort of doing the thing that I'm doing. So these are also other like very like practical discussions about like that we're gonna have.

Mary Schaub (01:02:38.414)
I agree with you. I actually don't, I totally agree with you. And I am a big fan of, you know, this, I do have a revolutionary mindset. I'm going to, I'm going to like walk the corporate line and call it more of a transformative kind of mindset because I think like with personal change, like if you're not really ready for it, it's you're not ready for it. And so I think.

Some of these organizations are not ready for these changes. And until some like really key things happen, it's gonna be quite difficult. Does that mean that employees shouldn't be, you know, adamant about, you know, making sure that their needs are met, whatever that means to them or, you know, or making choices of being in organizations that are more aligned to what they want and need. I think I would agree with you. I just think.

you need to be realistic about what you can and can't control. And even a bad situation is a growth situation. And I've said that, I've actually had that honest conversation with employees or in some of my mentorship relationships where someone's like, I'm in this thing. And I had one the other day through my university, I do some mentorship. And she's like, her first job and she's like, basically getting coffee and making copies and kind of stuff. And.

And she's like, and they're doing all this wrong and we're not calling, she was working for an executive search firm. And she's like, we're not even getting back to people and they're calling and it's really mean and it's rude and I keep telling them and I'm looking at her I'm like, oh, you're so, you're gonna be fine. But listen, this is where you are. This is how you have to negotiate it. I said, and imagine right now the narrative you'll have for the next job interview when you talk about how you identified all these opportunities of process improvement.

Katie (01:04:00.295)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (01:04:24.738)
But if you shift your mindset and don't feel trapped, like you're in this terrible job where they don't see anything and you see it, but they're not listening to you or anything, it's like, how is this an opportunity? How can you extract something from this to another opportunity that's gonna get you closer to what you want? So that's just me being a little more realistic.

Katie (01:04:43.578)
Well, and I'll drop my first bomb here, which is that it's like my viewpoint on that is like, why are you getting upset about this? Like one of the things I think is in terms of like, you know, playing this game is where folks feel, and this is where people, I think that lose in the game, they take it personally and they don't actually understand that the task at hand is not just ultimately performance.

Like the task at hand, the game that you're playing is not that the company runs like at full, like optimum capacity. There is a political game, there is a social game. There is a all sorts of facets of this that are playing like probably even stronger, which is that, you know, what does it feel like to work with you? Like how do you make the people that need to feel good, feel good? And this can be, this is both customers.

and this is the people that work for you and this is managing up. Um, you know, and this thing that it's like, well, performance and making people feel bad about the fact things aren't being run well. It's like, well, you know what, back to the thing about big corporations, you know, like, you know, being labeled as bad, it's like, yeah, we'll build one, build one and tell me like how great you're, you're going to be at being able to build something this big and functional. Um, that, you know, it's like, that's

that's gonna be able to maintain this level of purity. So I think one of the things with this is just, it's like stop trying to think that it's your job to fix everything. Stop thinking, like play this so that you're playing your position, you're caring about people to an extent that's healthy for you, you're making money, and you're doing your part, but you're not doing this thing where you're just looking around trying to detect problems and be like, oh look, I see that, that's wrong, that's wrong.

Because all that really ultimately is, is like pointing out things that people have not wanted to fix. And that's something, and that's like a tough reality for people is to realize like the reason that dysfunctions in organizations exist is because different departments have like misalignments. You like individuals working functions don't really care. So now that you care, you're like flagging them and now you're putting a target on your back. It's like, there's just.

Katie (01:07:04.642)
You know, it's not even overly complicated as far, you know, it's like the, how I'm leaning into this sounds overly complicated, but ultimately like my, you know, when, when I'm advising people working in companies, I'm like, just stop doing that. Like stop doing this thing. That's like, I need to fix everything. This thing isn't working. That's not under my jurisdiction. Like this thing it's like, I, that's why they do not succeed. This is.

Mary Schaub (01:07:24.558)
A lot of people never learned that like this, so this is like one of those things. Yeah, this is, and there's a great book by Marshall Goldsmith called, "'What Got You Here Won't Get You There'." And this is just like, if you don't have great leaders that tell you kind of these like anecdotal like little secrets, these like, you're just on the, I work hard and I make things better.

Katie (01:07:46.244)
Yeah.

Mary Schaub (01:07:50.558)
And then you're like, why isn't this like that worked for this part of my career? I keep running against it, it's not working anymore. It's all the things that you were just saying, Katie, and this book is recommended to me some years ago, really, really good. There is a different political game and at a certain level, it's less about what you particularly, especially your leader, you're running an organization, you need to make people feel.

a certain way when you interact with them. Your teams need to understand that. You need to develop this in your teams. But it's just not something that's spoken about. And I think that it also requires a level of emotional intelligence that maybe not everybody is coming into the game with, because what we're talking about is emotional intelligence in a corporate space with corporate politics. But if you don't have emotional intelligence with yourself, with your personal life, now you're like,

Katie (01:08:24.58)
Yeah.

Katie (01:08:35.069)
100%.

Mary Schaub (01:08:45.118)
You know, like, I mean, you're not doing this, you know, with a family and the friends. So now all of a sudden, like the stakes are higher. So I think this is exactly the kind of stuff. Maybe we can add this as another topic. I'm really getting excited.

Katie (01:08:55.282)
This is a great topic. This is a great topic because like one example for me, like on a personal level, on a practical level, is that when I was an individual contributor as a salesperson, I was incredibly high performing. And I was like, but I was like a total maverick. I was out doing all sorts of stuff that, you know, like my business acumen sucked. I was always like, why are you trying to fence me in with metrics?

Uh, you know, my results speak for themselves. I was like, why do I have to fill in a form for going on vacation? I told you I'm going on vacation. That should be enough. Why are you treating me like I'm a robot? Like all of this stuff that I, and I was like really passionate about the fact that I was like, wow, I keep getting dinged for not being, you know, kind of following the fold of the processes. And you know, well, you know, it's like, I'm number one in the country. Why are you bothering me with this stuff?

And then I became, no, but like, no, but I'll tell you, this story continues. Like when I became a leader, one of the things that I like, and now as a leader, or when I was an executive, I was like a huge process person. I was a huge reporting person. I was a huge benchmarking person. I was a huge admin person.

Mary Schaub (01:09:51.086)
I was the one bothering you by the way. I would be playing the role of the one who created the processes.

Katie (01:10:15.322)
because it's about communication. And this is really like the end of the day. It's like when I was an individual, I was like a selfish young kid that knew how to do absolutely everything and was like smarter than everybody in the room. And then when I became a leader, I was like, oh, this is impossible to manage if everybody would operate like that. Like we are a team, everybody, like how would I, if somebody's like, I'm gonna be on vacation next Wednesday and Thursday.

and you have like 50 people, you have 70 people, you have 100 people, it's absolutely unmanageable. So even the thing about providing benchmarking, about saying like you hit these metrics because this is sort of like these, if you are not performing, we can actually walk you back to see where you need to be really tightening the screw to be able to sort of optimize everything that comes downstream. So.

Like that was one of the things, you know, back to this, this notion of like taking, you know, being like, why are they doing this? And, you know, this is so stupid and I know the right way to do it. And nobody, you know, and you know, it's, it's just one of those things, like, as far as like offering advice for people is like that kind of like, I know how to do it better. It's like, if you, you know, if you have that opinion, um, engineer it and like, shut the heck up, like engineer, think about it in your head and like, be like, you know what?

you know, this is how you do this. Like this is, this is how you can do it better, but don't talk about it. Like, and that was like, when I became the first team I built, people, I remember one of the things was like, how do you know how to do this so well? And, and I remember I was like, because I had so many bad managers and what would happen is I'd watch what they were doing and I would be like, yeah, that's getting exactly the wrong.

response out of me and you're making me an adversary to you or like I'd be like that's this and I'd notice all This stuff and I'd be like if they just did it this way if they just did it this way So when I did become a leader I had this like Library of insight about how to actually create something and then of course there were other things I didn't know how to do that took that I had a learning curve on which are the things which were process and procedure Which I wound up adopting and being incredibly passionate about So yeah

Katie (01:12:31.778)
more topics for us. All right, we did it!

Mary Schaub (01:12:33.238)
More topics.

And cut.

Katie (01:12:37.233)
and cut.